{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":14.429,"endTime":17.068,"body":"Hello, and"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":14.429,"endTime":17.068,"body":"welcome to season two, Episode"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":17.068,"endTime":19.318,"body":"Five of the Virtual Coffee"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":17.068,"endTime":19.318,"body":"podcast."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":21.309,"endTime":24.579,"body":"I'm Bekah, and this is a podcast"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":21.309,"endTime":24.579,"body":"that features members of the"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":24.579,"endTime":28.239,"body":"Virtual Coffee community."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":24.579,"endTime":28.239,"body":"Virtual Coffee is an intimate"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":28.239,"endTime":31.089,"body":"group of developers at all"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":28.239,"endTime":31.089,"body":"stages of their coding journey."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":31.42,"endTime":34.39,"body":"And they're here on this podcast"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":31.42,"endTime":34.39,"body":"sharing their stories and what"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":34.39,"endTime":38.02,"body":"they've learned. And we're here"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":34.39,"endTime":38.02,"body":"to share it with you. Here with"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":38.02,"endTime":40.119,"body":"me today is my co host, Dan."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":40.899,"endTime":43.75,"body":"Thanks, Bekah. Today we"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":40.899,"endTime":43.75,"body":"talk with Tom Cudd, a systems"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":43.75,"endTime":47.799,"body":"architect and 20 year veteran in"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":43.75,"endTime":47.799,"body":"technology. We talked about his"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":47.799,"endTime":51.969,"body":"experiences with DevOps and how"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":47.799,"endTime":51.969,"body":"it changed over the years about"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":51.969,"endTime":55.359,"body":"psychological safety. What that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":51.969,"endTime":55.359,"body":"means to Tom and how important"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":55.359,"endTime":58.899,"body":"it is to build into your team"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":55.359,"endTime":58.899,"body":"and workflows, and about the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":58.899,"endTime":62.02,"body":"dangers of hero culture in the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":58.899,"endTime":62.02,"body":"workplace."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":62.829,"endTime":64.75,"body":"We start"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":62.829,"endTime":64.75,"body":"every episode of the podcast"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":64.75,"endTime":68.2,"body":"like we start every Virtual"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":64.75,"endTime":68.2,"body":"Coffee, we introduce ourselves"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":68.2,"endTime":71.409,"body":"with our name, where we're from"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":68.2,"endTime":71.409,"body":"what we do, and a random"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":71.409,"endTime":75.37,"body":"checking question. Today's"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":71.409,"endTime":75.37,"body":"question is, if you could start"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":75.37,"endTime":79.78,"body":"a collection of one kind of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":75.37,"endTime":79.78,"body":"item, what would it be? We hope"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":79.78,"endTime":94.48,"body":"you enjoyed this episode. Hey,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":79.78,"endTime":94.48,"body":"I'm Bekah, I'm a front end"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":90.01,"endTime":99.519,"body":"developer from a small town in"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":90.01,"endTime":99.519,"body":"Ohio. And if I could start a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":94.51,"endTime":104.109,"body":"collection of one type of item,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":94.51,"endTime":104.109,"body":"one kind of item. I don't know"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":99.549,"endTime":108.64,"body":"what it would be. But when I was"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":99.549,"endTime":108.64,"body":"a kid, I used to collect tree"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":104.109,"endTime":112.48,"body":"fungus. And that's one type of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":104.109,"endTime":112.48,"body":"item. So there you go."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":112.659,"endTime":115.12,"body":"Wow, I think a million"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":112.659,"endTime":115.12,"body":"guesses and I wouldn't have"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":115.12,"endTime":115.629,"body":"guessed though."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":116.56,"endTime":117.879,"body":"Also,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":116.56,"endTime":117.879,"body":"cicada shells. I had a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":117.879,"endTime":123.159,"body":"collection of shells. Yeah. But"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":117.879,"endTime":123.159,"body":"tree fungus is very serious."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":123.37,"endTime":126.7,"body":"This year is one of the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":123.37,"endTime":126.7,"body":"17 year, cicadas years."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":126.73,"endTime":129.009,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":126.73,"endTime":129.009,"body":"it's missing us. So it's gonna"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":129.009,"endTime":134.5,"body":"hit like Pittsburgh, it's"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":129.009,"endTime":134.5,"body":"looking to go around, so..."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":135.219,"endTime":140.02,"body":"Fair enough. Hi, I'm"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":135.219,"endTime":140.02,"body":"Dan. I'm a front end developer"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":140.05,"endTime":147.849,"body":"from Lakewood, Ohio. So if I"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":140.05,"endTime":147.849,"body":"could start a collection"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":143.8,"endTime":152.11,"body":"of one item, what would it be?"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":143.8,"endTime":152.11,"body":"And I feel like this implies"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":147.849,"endTime":154.81,"body":"that I can't I can't like, say"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":147.849,"endTime":154.81,"body":"anything that I've already"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":152.11,"endTime":161.469,"body":"collected, you know, that I have"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":152.11,"endTime":161.469,"body":"a collection currently have. And"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":154.81,"endTime":164.02,"body":"I like I said, so I'm going with"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":154.81,"endTime":164.02,"body":"something brand new, but I feel"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":161.469,"endTime":166.81,"body":"like I could get into like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":161.469,"endTime":166.81,"body":"shoes, you know, like I could"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":164.02,"endTime":170.11,"body":"see, you know, again into the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":164.02,"endTime":170.11,"body":"sneakers, you know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":166.81,"endTime":172.3,"body":"Like that, that I try to stay"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":166.81,"endTime":172.3,"body":"really far away from it so that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":170.11,"endTime":176.439,"body":"I don't like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":170.11,"endTime":176.439,"body":"accidentally get sucked into it."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":172.3,"endTime":179.949,"body":"I can get carried away with"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":172.3,"endTime":179.949,"body":"like, collecting pretty much"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":176.439,"endTime":181.659,"body":"anything, you know, very easily."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":176.439,"endTime":181.659,"body":"So I tried really, really hard"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":179.949,"endTime":181.659,"body":"not."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":181.87,"endTime":185.229,"body":"Not trying"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":181.87,"endTime":185.229,"body":"really hard not to collect"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":185.229,"endTime":185.68,"body":"fungus."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":187.06,"endTime":188.65,"body":"Yes. Including that."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":193.27,"endTime":197.139,"body":"So I'm Tom Cudd. I'm a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":193.27,"endTime":197.139,"body":"systems architect in the Kansas"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":197.139,"endTime":203.469,"body":"City, Missouri area. Yeah, I'm a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":197.139,"endTime":203.469,"body":"reformed hoarder, I think so"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":203.469,"endTime":206.469,"body":"like I have a lot of collections"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":203.469,"endTime":206.469,"body":"that I've had to like get rid of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":206.469,"endTime":209.379,"body":"over the years. So I'll say"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":206.469,"endTime":209.379,"body":"something that I have not"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":209.379,"endTime":213.34,"body":"collected before. I would"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":209.379,"endTime":213.34,"body":"collect exotic supercars"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":213.37,"endTime":216.28,"body":"because, you know, oh, that'd be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":213.37,"endTime":216.28,"body":"pretty awesome. Except, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":216.28,"endTime":222.219,"body":"know, you'd have to actually pay"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":216.28,"endTime":222.219,"body":"for them. But I do like cars. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":222.37,"endTime":225.879,"body":"I'm not like a car person. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":222.37,"endTime":225.879,"body":"just really think that fast cars"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":225.879,"endTime":226.419,"body":"are awesome."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":227.439,"endTime":229.33,"body":"Yeah, that'd be cool."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":227.439,"endTime":229.33,"body":"That'd be cool thing to have a"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":229.33,"endTime":230.469,"body":"collection of for sure."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":233.5,"endTime":236.289,"body":"Nice. Well,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":233.5,"endTime":236.289,"body":"welcome, Tom. we're really,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":236.289,"endTime":239.86,"body":"really excited to be talking to"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":236.289,"endTime":239.86,"body":"you today. So thanks for being"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":239.86,"endTime":245.229,"body":"here. And the way we normally"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":239.86,"endTime":245.229,"body":"get started is we ask all of our"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":245.229,"endTime":248.259,"body":"guests, kind of how they got"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":245.229,"endTime":248.259,"body":"into tech or where they are now."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":248.259,"endTime":252.49,"body":"So if you can give us your"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":248.259,"endTime":252.49,"body":"origin story we would like to"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":252.49,"endTime":252.759,"body":"hear"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":253.09,"endTime":258.25,"body":"Yeah, absolutely. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":253.09,"endTime":258.25,"body":"think I took more of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":258.25,"endTime":262.3,"body":"traditional approach if you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":258.25,"endTime":262.3,"body":"would call it that. To get into"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":262.3,"endTime":266.86,"body":"tech I graduated from University"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":262.3,"endTime":266.86,"body":"of Nebraska Lincoln with a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":266.889,"endTime":272.41,"body":"computer engineering degree."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":266.889,"endTime":272.41,"body":"That meant I focused a lot on"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":272.41,"endTime":275.62,"body":"like hardware and electrical"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":272.41,"endTime":275.62,"body":"engineering in some of my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":275.62,"endTime":279.49,"body":"classes. But by the time I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":275.62,"endTime":279.49,"body":"rolled around the end, I was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":279.49,"endTime":284.05,"body":"like, I don't want to like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":279.49,"endTime":284.05,"body":"design chips or anything like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":284.05,"endTime":289.87,"body":"that. So I started looking"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":284.05,"endTime":289.87,"body":"around for for it was pretty bad"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":289.87,"endTime":292.87,"body":"job market when I when I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":289.87,"endTime":292.87,"body":"graduated. So I just tried to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":292.87,"endTime":295.629,"body":"find whatever I could that was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":292.87,"endTime":295.629,"body":"remotely related to tech and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":295.66,"endTime":302.47,"body":"ended up doing like desktop"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":295.66,"endTime":302.47,"body":"support and For a small mom and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":302.47,"endTime":306.009,"body":"pop shop, which, which most"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":302.47,"endTime":306.009,"body":"people would actually call a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":306.009,"endTime":310.449,"body":"startup now. So like we did like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":306.009,"endTime":310.449,"body":"dial up internet for people in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":310.449,"endTime":315.699,"body":"rural, we did wireless internet,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":310.449,"endTime":315.699,"body":"like off of wireless towers to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":315.699,"endTime":320.079,"body":"get more high speed and I fix"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":315.699,"endTime":320.079,"body":"people's computers I installed,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":320.17,"endTime":323.8,"body":"you know, modems and desktops"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":320.17,"endTime":323.8,"body":"and sent people on their way. So"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":323.8,"endTime":327.97,"body":"I did that for a few years and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":323.8,"endTime":327.97,"body":"eventually moved into sort of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":328.389,"endTime":334.6,"body":"the more enterprise space. So"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":328.389,"endTime":334.6,"body":"now, after years of kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":334.6,"endTime":338.709,"body":"building up moving on from"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":334.6,"endTime":338.709,"body":"desktops to data centers, now"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":338.709,"endTime":342.939,"body":"I'm, I guess, I work a lot in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":338.709,"endTime":342.939,"body":"the cloud space. So I'm kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":342.939,"endTime":346.449,"body":"a cloud engineer, cloud"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":342.939,"endTime":346.449,"body":"architect, right? I do work in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":346.449,"endTime":350.41,"body":"Azure and AWS to build out"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":346.449,"endTime":350.41,"body":"infrastructure, with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":350.439,"endTime":354.97,"body":"infrastructures, code, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":350.439,"endTime":354.97,"body":"whatever new technologies come"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":354.97,"endTime":355.509,"body":"about."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":356.98,"endTime":360.73,"body":"Nice. So"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":356.98,"endTime":360.73,"body":"one of the things we wanted to"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":360.73,"endTime":365.769,"body":"talk about today was DevOps. And"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":360.73,"endTime":365.769,"body":"before I ask any questions, can"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":365.769,"endTime":368.829,"body":"you give us a definition of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":365.769,"endTime":368.829,"body":"DevOps?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":369.379,"endTime":375.379,"body":"Yes, there are many"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":369.379,"endTime":375.379,"body":"definitions of DevOps. It's sort"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":375.379,"endTime":379.339,"body":"of like asking people what agile"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":375.379,"endTime":379.339,"body":"is, you'll get a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":379.339,"endTime":383.449,"body":"different answers, depending on"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":379.339,"endTime":383.449,"body":"what people's experiences are. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":383.48,"endTime":390.23,"body":"look at DevOps from a cultural"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":383.48,"endTime":390.23,"body":"and professional perspective. So"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":390.23,"endTime":395.75,"body":"like, it's more about a culture"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":390.23,"endTime":395.75,"body":"and mentality, one where there's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":395.75,"endTime":402.379,"body":"an emphasis on, on collaborating"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":395.75,"endTime":402.379,"body":"and working together with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":402.379,"endTime":405.92,"body":"different parts of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":402.379,"endTime":405.92,"body":"organization. It's it's sort of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":405.92,"endTime":410.87,"body":"misnamed, because DevOps implies"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":405.92,"endTime":410.87,"body":"that there's just two pieces"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":410.87,"endTime":415.22,"body":"that would be working together,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":410.87,"endTime":415.22,"body":"we're really it's like, Bus,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":415.22,"endTime":421.339,"body":"Dev, Sec, QA, Ops, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":415.22,"endTime":421.339,"body":"like, it's like, trying to bring"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":421.339,"endTime":425.24,"body":"everybody to the table. So yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":421.339,"endTime":425.24,"body":"I look at it from the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":425.24,"endTime":429.769,"body":"perspective of it's a, it's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":425.24,"endTime":429.769,"body":"cultural movement, that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":430.759,"endTime":434.87,"body":"encourages collaboration across"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":430.759,"endTime":434.87,"body":"what were previously known as"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":434.87,"endTime":439.339,"body":"silos within organizations or"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":434.87,"endTime":439.339,"body":"experiences."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":440.769,"endTime":441.97,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":440.769,"endTime":441.97,"body":"that's a really great"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":441.97,"endTime":446.589,"body":"definition. And when I was"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":441.97,"endTime":446.589,"body":"looking for a job, when I lost"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":446.589,"endTime":449.05,"body":"my job, at the beginning of the"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":446.589,"endTime":449.05,"body":"pandemic, someone reached out to"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":449.05,"endTime":452.139,"body":"me to apply for a DevOps job."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":449.05,"endTime":452.139,"body":"And they asked me what my"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":452.139,"endTime":456.16,"body":"definition was. And it was,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":452.139,"endTime":456.16,"body":"like, I had a very little"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":456.16,"endTime":460.42,"body":"understanding. And so my"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":456.16,"endTime":460.42,"body":"homework for the next interview"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":460.42,"endTime":464.079,"body":"was to read the Phoenix Project"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":460.42,"endTime":464.079,"body":"in the Unicorn Project, and then"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":464.079,"endTime":468.25,"body":"come back with a definition of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":464.079,"endTime":468.25,"body":"what DevOps was. But I wish I"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":468.25,"endTime":470.86,"body":"could have just asked you then,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":468.25,"endTime":470.86,"body":"but I don't think I knew you"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":470.86,"endTime":471.04,"body":"then."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":471.04,"endTime":474.519,"body":"I would have gladly"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":471.04,"endTime":474.519,"body":"given the answer. Yeah. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":474.519,"endTime":479.5,"body":"a lot of people think it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":474.519,"endTime":479.5,"body":"like, I might apply for this"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":479.5,"endTime":484.18,"body":"like DevOps job, it's people who"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":479.5,"endTime":484.18,"body":"were--I call them reformed"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":484.18,"endTime":488.68,"body":"systems administrators often"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":484.18,"endTime":488.68,"body":"really have just titled change"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":488.68,"endTime":495.009,"body":"to kind of DevOps engineers. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":488.68,"endTime":495.009,"body":"so, a, there's a certain set of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":495.009,"endTime":499.42,"body":"experiences around operational"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":495.009,"endTime":499.42,"body":"tools and techniques, like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":499.449,"endTime":505.449,"body":"deployments, you know, Jenkins"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":499.449,"endTime":505.449,"body":"builds and, and doing releases,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":505.839,"endTime":509.68,"body":"that's sort of traditional what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":505.839,"endTime":509.68,"body":"used to be, when the developers"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":509.68,"endTime":514.899,"body":"are done coding, they throw a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":509.68,"endTime":514.899,"body":"tarball over the over the wall"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":514.899,"endTime":517.87,"body":"and expect an operations person"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":514.899,"endTime":517.87,"body":"had to deploy it out onto the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":517.87,"endTime":524.2,"body":"server. So that's sort of what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":517.87,"endTime":524.2,"body":"many people consider the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":524.2,"endTime":529.629,"body":"mechanics, the actual tactics of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":524.2,"endTime":529.629,"body":"a lot of DevOps, folks, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":529.899,"endTime":532.419,"body":"it's, it's more than that. Now,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":529.899,"endTime":532.419,"body":"it takes a little bit of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":532.57,"endTime":535.419,"body":"experiences from all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":532.57,"endTime":535.419,"body":"technology areas."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":535.99,"endTime":539.35,"body":"It's interesting, the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":535.99,"endTime":539.35,"body":"rise of DevOps, and you were"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":539.35,"endTime":542.889,"body":"touching on this, it's been"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":539.35,"endTime":542.889,"body":"interesting to watch. Because I,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":542.919,"endTime":547.269,"body":"my experience, for a large"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":542.919,"endTime":547.269,"body":"portion of my career was the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":547.269,"endTime":549.309,"body":"same, right, like, I kind of"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":547.269,"endTime":549.309,"body":"finished my coding thing, and"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":549.309,"endTime":553.659,"body":"then I'm like, okay, make it so."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":549.309,"endTime":553.659,"body":"Right. Like, you know, somebody"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":553.659,"endTime":556.779,"body":"put this up on the internet, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":553.659,"endTime":556.779,"body":"know, and, and there's so many"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":556.779,"endTime":559.96,"body":"tools now available, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":556.779,"endTime":559.96,"body":"that, like the cloud services"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":559.96,"endTime":565.48,"body":"and everything, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":559.96,"endTime":565.48,"body":"some barriers have been lowered,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":565.57,"endTime":571.69,"body":"right. But that means, but also,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":565.57,"endTime":571.69,"body":"like, lots of times, somebody"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":571.69,"endTime":573.82,"body":"who traditionally would never"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":571.69,"endTime":573.82,"body":"have to even think about that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":573.82,"endTime":578.289,"body":"sort of thing has to think about"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":573.82,"endTime":578.289,"body":"a lot of it. Now, as more with"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":578.289,"endTime":584.169,"body":"smaller, you know, with smaller"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":578.289,"endTime":584.169,"body":"outfits, probably, but I guess,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":584.169,"endTime":587.529,"body":"I guess I was wondering if,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":584.169,"endTime":587.529,"body":"like, if you talk more like how"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":587.529,"endTime":589.809,"body":"you've seen that, that's sort of"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":587.529,"endTime":589.809,"body":"like the DevOps, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":590.08,"endTime":593.679,"body":"things change and last, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":590.08,"endTime":593.679,"body":"know, however, a lot like last"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":593.679,"endTime":597.49,"body":"couple years, even, you know, as"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":593.679,"endTime":597.49,"body":"far as the definition or even"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":597.49,"endTime":601.539,"body":"the roles, you know, what kind"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":597.49,"endTime":601.539,"body":"of what kind of different"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":601.57,"endTime":603.58,"body":"interactions are using things"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":601.57,"endTime":603.58,"body":"like that."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":604.09,"endTime":608.259,"body":"Yeah, I have seen"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":604.09,"endTime":608.259,"body":"changes over the last 10 years"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":608.259,"endTime":611.98,"body":"when I didn't know I was doing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":608.259,"endTime":611.98,"body":"kind of DevOps work 10 years"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":611.98,"endTime":616.809,"body":"ago, really, I really read the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":611.98,"endTime":616.809,"body":"Phoenix project, I think, six or"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":616.809,"endTime":620.47,"body":"seven years ago, which really"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":616.809,"endTime":620.47,"body":"introduced me to the methods of,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":621.009,"endTime":624.58,"body":"of how we deliver code to the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":621.009,"endTime":624.58,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":625.24,"endTime":626.95,"body":"Could--I'm sorry to"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":625.24,"endTime":626.95,"body":"interrupt--but could you...I"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":627.129,"endTime":628.57,"body":"don't know what the Phoenix"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":627.129,"endTime":628.57,"body":"project is."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":629.019,"endTime":632.47,"body":"Oh, yeah, the Phoenix"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":629.019,"endTime":632.47,"body":"project. Yeah, the Phoenix"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":632.47,"endTime":639.25,"body":"project is a great book that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":632.47,"endTime":639.25,"body":"really widely presented DevOps"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":639.25,"endTime":645.669,"body":"in a, in a story format, to to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":639.25,"endTime":645.669,"body":"the world. I don't remember, all"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":645.669,"endTime":648.309,"body":"of the authors, there's couple"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":645.669,"endTime":648.309,"body":"authors that work with Jean Kim,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":648.309,"endTime":651.85,"body":"who is the main author, and he"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":648.309,"endTime":651.85,"body":"he's an excellent speaker, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":651.85,"endTime":657.909,"body":"an excellent contributor to the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":651.85,"endTime":657.909,"body":"DevOps landscape. And he, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":657.909,"endTime":663.039,"body":"book was a lot of people's first"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":657.909,"endTime":663.039,"body":"introduction to what DevOps is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":663.07,"endTime":667.33,"body":"in, in how it can be used to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":663.07,"endTime":667.33,"body":"correct problematic behaviors"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":667.33,"endTime":673.059,"body":"within an organization. And, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":667.33,"endTime":673.059,"body":"so when I read that, I like it,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":673.059,"endTime":676.09,"body":"like blew my mind, I read"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":673.059,"endTime":676.09,"body":"through it in a day, I didn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":676.09,"endTime":679.809,"body":"sleep until I finished that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":676.09,"endTime":679.809,"body":"book. And I came back to work"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":679.809,"endTime":683.259,"body":"the next day, and I was like, we"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":679.809,"endTime":683.259,"body":"have to do this for everything."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":683.289,"endTime":687.639,"body":"And yeah, my boss was like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":683.289,"endTime":687.639,"body":"okay, chill for a second. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":687.639,"endTime":690.429,"body":"then let's like break this down"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":687.639,"endTime":690.429,"body":"and analyze what what it is that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":690.429,"endTime":697.21,"body":"we can we can do. There are a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":690.429,"endTime":697.21,"body":"few things that we learned right"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":697.21,"endTime":700.179,"body":"off the bat, we were already"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":697.21,"endTime":700.179,"body":"doing right, like emphasizing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":701.259,"endTime":704.35,"body":"our ability to empathize with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":701.259,"endTime":704.35,"body":"the people we're working with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":704.35,"endTime":708.309,"body":"and understand the problems and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":704.35,"endTime":708.309,"body":"meet people at least at least in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":708.309,"endTime":710.889,"body":"the middle. And sometimes more"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":708.309,"endTime":710.889,"body":"than halfway, we would, we would"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":710.889,"endTime":715.87,"body":"try to reach across the aisle to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":710.889,"endTime":715.87,"body":"get the problem solved. But what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":716.74,"endTime":721.059,"body":"what's really changed, I think,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":716.74,"endTime":721.059,"body":"over the last five years is that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":721.48,"endTime":728.08,"body":"we've seen other areas of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":721.48,"endTime":728.08,"body":"technology developer is QA,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":728.62,"endTime":732.279,"body":"infosec, they all have kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":728.62,"endTime":732.279,"body":"embraced more of an emphasis on"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":732.309,"endTime":738.159,"body":"on that empathy with other parts"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":732.309,"endTime":738.159,"body":"of the organization. Mainly,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":738.159,"endTime":741.549,"body":"because I think people are"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":738.159,"endTime":741.549,"body":"realizing there's only so many"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":741.58,"endTime":745.36,"body":"abstractions about technology"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":741.58,"endTime":745.36,"body":"that you can hold in your head"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":745.72,"endTime":750.1,"body":"at the same time. So what I mean"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":745.72,"endTime":750.1,"body":"by that, like, I have an"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":750.1,"endTime":756.759,"body":"understanding of hardware, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":750.1,"endTime":756.759,"body":"then how the cloud you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":756.759,"endTime":759.519,"body":"system sit on top of that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":756.759,"endTime":759.519,"body":"hardware, and then how we"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":759.519,"endTime":764.799,"body":"present that clouds systems to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":759.519,"endTime":764.799,"body":"the the developers and to the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":764.799,"endTime":769.629,"body":"end users. If you have to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":764.799,"endTime":769.629,"body":"understand like, at some point,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":769.629,"endTime":772.269,"body":"you have to go, Oh, I need to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":769.629,"endTime":772.269,"body":"understand what exactly is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":772.269,"endTime":775.72,"body":"happening in the networking"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":772.269,"endTime":775.72,"body":"layer here. If you have no"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":775.72,"endTime":778.029,"body":"familiarity with that, you're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":775.72,"endTime":778.029,"body":"going to have to ask somebody."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":778.059,"endTime":782.86,"body":"And so what is the the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":778.059,"endTime":782.86,"body":"abstractions that people are"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":782.86,"endTime":785.559,"body":"understanding kind of overlap?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":782.86,"endTime":785.559,"body":"It's like a Venn diagram of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":785.71,"endTime":790.09,"body":"DevOps is really like the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":785.71,"endTime":790.09,"body":"intersection of, I'm working"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":790.09,"endTime":793.69,"body":"with a developer who understands"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":790.09,"endTime":793.69,"body":"how a Spring Boot application"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":793.75,"endTime":798.1,"body":"works on top of an application"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":793.75,"endTime":798.1,"body":"server. And I understand how an"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":798.1,"endTime":802.059,"body":"application server worked on top"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":798.1,"endTime":802.059,"body":"of an OS. And so we're meeting"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":802.059,"endTime":806.44,"body":"in that. That middle, it used to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":802.059,"endTime":806.44,"body":"be, there was a job title, a lot"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":806.44,"endTime":809.95,"body":"of people had called middleware"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":806.44,"endTime":809.95,"body":"application developer. And they"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":809.95,"endTime":814.149,"body":"had, that was sort of like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":809.95,"endTime":814.149,"body":"instead of finding a way to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":814.149,"endTime":816.34,"body":"collaborate, they just found"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":814.149,"endTime":816.34,"body":"someone who understood both"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":816.34,"endTime":821.74,"body":"parts of those abstractions. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":816.34,"endTime":821.74,"body":"that making another team for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":821.74,"endTime":824.409,"body":"something where you really"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":821.74,"endTime":824.409,"body":"shouldn't have just found a way"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":824.409,"endTime":827.169,"body":"to collaborate and work together"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":824.409,"endTime":827.169,"body":"isn't the way to solve the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":827.169,"endTime":827.71,"body":"problem."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":828.879,"endTime":830.889,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":828.879,"endTime":830.889,"body":"that's, you keep saying the word"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":830.889,"endTime":832.99,"body":"collaboration. And I think"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":830.889,"endTime":832.99,"body":"that's great. And I also think"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":832.99,"endTime":835.72,"body":"it's, it can be super hard,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":832.99,"endTime":835.72,"body":"right? Especially when you have"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":835.72,"endTime":840.34,"body":"two teams that are two or more"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":835.72,"endTime":840.34,"body":"used to communicating in certain"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":840.34,"endTime":843.73,"body":"ways with each other. And I"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":840.34,"endTime":843.73,"body":"imagine that sometimes there can"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":843.73,"endTime":849.61,"body":"be friction or challenges to,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":843.73,"endTime":849.61,"body":"you know, make it a space where"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":849.61,"endTime":852.07,"body":"everybody can talk together."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":853.99,"endTime":859.509,"body":"Yeah, in, in, like the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":853.99,"endTime":859.509,"body":"enterprise 10 years ago, in sort"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":859.509,"endTime":865.57,"body":"of larger enterprise"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":859.509,"endTime":865.57,"body":"organizations. The needs of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":865.87,"endTime":869.98,"body":"developers and the business"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":865.87,"endTime":869.98,"body":"working with developers was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":869.98,"endTime":874.809,"body":"different than that of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":869.98,"endTime":874.809,"body":"operational groups. developers"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":874.809,"endTime":880.99,"body":"were tasked with releasing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":874.809,"endTime":880.99,"body":"features and getting code pushed"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":880.99,"endTime":886.69,"body":"out. And operations groups were"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":880.99,"endTime":886.69,"body":"put into the place where they"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":886.69,"endTime":891.7,"body":"had to ensure the stability of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":886.69,"endTime":891.7,"body":"an application, make sure that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":891.7,"endTime":894.94,"body":"things stayed running, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":891.7,"endTime":894.94,"body":"safety and security and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":894.94,"endTime":898.75,"body":"stability was of utmost"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":894.94,"endTime":898.75,"body":"importance. You know, uptime was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":898.75,"endTime":903.429,"body":"a big deal. For operational"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":898.75,"endTime":903.429,"body":"groups and developers were like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":904.09,"endTime":906.46,"body":"you know, I don't care about"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":904.09,"endTime":906.46,"body":"uptime, I have a new feature"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":906.46,"endTime":912.279,"body":"that has to get out to the end"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":906.46,"endTime":912.279,"body":"users. And so that collaboration"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":912.279,"endTime":914.86,"body":"wasn't happening, because we"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":912.279,"endTime":914.86,"body":"were all coming from a different"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":914.86,"endTime":918.129,"body":"place a different perspective"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":914.86,"endTime":918.129,"body":"of, we had to figure out how to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":918.129,"endTime":923.47,"body":"align the needs of each"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":918.129,"endTime":923.47,"body":"organization, to to solve"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":923.47,"endTime":924.19,"body":"problems."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":927.389,"endTime":933.36,"body":"Did that sort of, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":927.389,"endTime":933.36,"body":"know...like, everything you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":933.36,"endTime":937.74,"body":"said, may made sense, and so"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":933.36,"endTime":937.74,"body":"trying to, like, where were you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":937.74,"endTime":940.289,"body":"in that process of trying to,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":937.74,"endTime":940.289,"body":"like figure that that out, like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":940.409,"endTime":943.95,"body":"figure out how to make new"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":940.409,"endTime":943.95,"body":"communication channels or new,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":943.98,"endTime":945.84,"body":"you know, decision making"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":943.98,"endTime":945.84,"body":"processes, stuff like that?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":946.6,"endTime":953.409,"body":"Well, it, it's kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":946.6,"endTime":953.409,"body":"fun to talk to people. For me, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":953.409,"endTime":958.6,"body":"love talking to people. And I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":953.409,"endTime":958.6,"body":"had been working or I'm at now,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":958.6,"endTime":963.49,"body":"I've been there for 10 years"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":958.6,"endTime":963.49,"body":"now. And when I started to take"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":963.49,"endTime":966.1,"body":"some of these DevOps approaches,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":963.49,"endTime":966.1,"body":"I had been there for about four"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":966.1,"endTime":972.37,"body":"years. So I had inroads. I had"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":966.1,"endTime":972.37,"body":"trusting relationships built"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":972.37,"endTime":975.22,"body":"with certain people in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":972.37,"endTime":975.22,"body":"organization, because you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":975.22,"endTime":979.149,"body":"you get, you're getting a cup of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":975.22,"endTime":979.149,"body":"coffee, and you talk about, oh,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":979.149,"endTime":983.679,"body":"hey, this person also plays the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":979.149,"endTime":983.679,"body":"electric bass like me. So like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":983.679,"endTime":989.35,"body":"let's talk about that. One, one"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":983.679,"endTime":989.35,"body":"person on my team said a couple"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":989.35,"endTime":994.09,"body":"years ago, they're like, trust"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":989.35,"endTime":994.09,"body":"takes time. It takes time, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":994.09,"endTime":997.24,"body":"can't I couldn't have just come"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":994.09,"endTime":997.24,"body":"to a new person and come into a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":997.24,"endTime":1000.48,"body":"new job and go, Okay, we're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":997.24,"endTime":1000.48,"body":"gonna DevOps everything around"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1000.48,"endTime":1003.6,"body":"here. And I'm gonna do things"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1000.48,"endTime":1003.6,"body":"this way. And you're just gonna"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1003.6,"endTime":1007.289,"body":"have to deal with it. Because I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1003.6,"endTime":1007.289,"body":"think I know what's best. No, it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1007.289,"endTime":1010.559,"body":"doesn't, it doesn't work, I got"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1007.289,"endTime":1010.559,"body":"to know the people that I was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1010.559,"endTime":1015.72,"body":"working with certain trusted,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1010.559,"endTime":1015.72,"body":"valued partners in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1015.72,"endTime":1020.549,"body":"development organization that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1015.72,"endTime":1020.549,"body":"realized, hey, nobody wants to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1020.549,"endTime":1024.96,"body":"be up at 3am trying to press a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1020.549,"endTime":1024.96,"body":"button to make this code end up"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1024.96,"endTime":1029.579,"body":"on production. So let's work"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1024.96,"endTime":1029.579,"body":"together to it. It started with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1029.609,"endTime":1034.019,"body":"we created custom scripts that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1029.609,"endTime":1034.019,"body":"people would just be able to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1034.019,"endTime":1037.589,"body":"trigger with a, you know, a new"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1034.019,"endTime":1037.589,"body":"code build would be triggered by"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1037.589,"endTime":1043.019,"body":"a commit. So something like that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1037.589,"endTime":1043.019,"body":"kind of opened up a whole new"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1043.019,"endTime":1049.079,"body":"world of realization that no one"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1043.019,"endTime":1049.079,"body":"has to throw code over a wall,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1049.829,"endTime":1054.69,"body":"we can actually work together to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1049.829,"endTime":1054.69,"body":"automate systems can do what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1054.69,"endTime":1060.029,"body":"systems are good at, which is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1054.69,"endTime":1060.029,"body":"save people time to do more deep"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1060.029,"endTime":1064.44,"body":"level thinking about problems."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1060.029,"endTime":1064.44,"body":"Because that's what we that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1064.44,"endTime":1068.97,"body":"the ultimate goal, you pay"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1064.44,"endTime":1068.97,"body":"people to solve unique and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1068.97,"endTime":1073.14,"body":"interesting problems not to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1068.97,"endTime":1073.14,"body":"press buttons all day that an"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1073.14,"endTime":1074.609,"body":"automated system can handle."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1076.64,"endTime":1079.94,"body":"Yeah, so it"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1076.64,"endTime":1079.94,"body":"sounds like a lot of the job"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1079.94,"endTime":1084.2,"body":"too, is creating an environment"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1079.94,"endTime":1084.2,"body":"where there's psychological"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1084.2,"endTime":1089.24,"body":"safety, right, where you have"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1084.2,"endTime":1089.24,"body":"this trust, where you are"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1089.24,"endTime":1094.67,"body":"thinking about the people who"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1089.24,"endTime":1094.67,"body":"are working? And is that"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1094.67,"endTime":1099.079,"body":"something that you're"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1094.67,"endTime":1099.079,"body":"consciously thinking about as"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1099.079,"endTime":1101.39,"body":"you're creating these"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1099.079,"endTime":1101.39,"body":"relationships? Or I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1101.39,"endTime":1104.39,"body":"how does the role of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1101.39,"endTime":1104.39,"body":"psychological safety fit in"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1104.39,"endTime":1104.75,"body":"there?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1105.589,"endTime":1109.279,"body":"For a person who's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1105.589,"endTime":1109.279,"body":"team lead or manager or"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1109.279,"endTime":1114.68,"body":"supervisor like myself, and also"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1109.279,"endTime":1114.68,"body":"doing the technology work, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1115.19,"endTime":1119.119,"body":"the most important thing to me"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1115.19,"endTime":1119.119,"body":"is to create a, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1119.119,"endTime":1127.19,"body":"trusted, safe environment. The"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1119.119,"endTime":1127.19,"body":"big thing I found, started doing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1127.19,"endTime":1131.359,"body":"research after reading Phoenix"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1127.19,"endTime":1131.359,"body":"project, a couple other books,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1132.23,"endTime":1136.22,"body":"Lean Enterprise and Accelerate"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1132.23,"endTime":1136.22,"body":"are two other books that I found"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1136.22,"endTime":1143.089,"body":"very powerful in, in my journey"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1136.22,"endTime":1143.089,"body":"to to optimize our DevOps,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1143.119,"endTime":1151.579,"body":"DevOps experiences, and our team"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1143.119,"endTime":1151.579,"body":"capabilities. Google did a, a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1151.579,"endTime":1157.519,"body":"huge research project on what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1151.579,"endTime":1157.519,"body":"made teams successful. And they"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1157.519,"endTime":1162.559,"body":"found that optimizing for like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1157.519,"endTime":1162.559,"body":"individual contributions to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1162.559,"endTime":1167.45,"body":"better, didn't ultimately bring"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1162.559,"endTime":1167.45,"body":"about success. So you can you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1167.45,"endTime":1172.64,"body":"can train people individually as"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1167.45,"endTime":1172.64,"body":"much as you can, but that, that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1173.15,"endTime":1177.95,"body":"only unlock so much potential."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1173.15,"endTime":1177.95,"body":"When they, when they figured out"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1177.98,"endTime":1180.92,"body":"what made certain teams more"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1177.98,"endTime":1180.92,"body":"successful by doing you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1180.92,"endTime":1184.009,"body":"observational analysis and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1180.92,"endTime":1184.009,"body":"surveys across their whole"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1184.009,"endTime":1188.569,"body":"organization, they found that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1184.009,"endTime":1188.569,"body":"the idea of psychological safety"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1188.569,"endTime":1194.509,"body":"was the most important factor to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1188.569,"endTime":1194.509,"body":"successful teams. So that means"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1195.349,"endTime":1202.009,"body":"giving everybody an opportunity"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1195.349,"endTime":1202.009,"body":"to speak knowing that you can"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1202.009,"endTime":1206.63,"body":"take risks without the, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1202.009,"endTime":1206.63,"body":"know, embarrassment of things"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1206.63,"endTime":1210.589,"body":"failing, like, I have a person"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1206.63,"endTime":1210.589,"body":"on my team that they deployed a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1210.589,"endTime":1213.74,"body":"config that accidentally broke"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1210.589,"endTime":1213.74,"body":"prod one time and it was there."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1213.799,"endTime":1216.799,"body":"They're a junior person. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1213.799,"endTime":1216.799,"body":"there's the first time they did"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1216.799,"endTime":1221.18,"body":"something that broke prod and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1216.799,"endTime":1221.18,"body":"another person on the team went"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1221.18,"endTime":1223.64,"body":"out and bought champagne and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1221.18,"endTime":1223.64,"body":"brought it back to the office"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1223.64,"endTime":1226.759,"body":"and was like, congratulations,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1223.64,"endTime":1226.759,"body":"it's your first time breaking"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1226.759,"endTime":1230.089,"body":"fraud, it won't be the last. So"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1226.759,"endTime":1230.089,"body":"let's celebrate it and learn"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1230.089,"endTime":1235.22,"body":"from it. So knowing that, that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1230.089,"endTime":1235.22,"body":"you can do risky things without"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1235.22,"endTime":1240.71,"body":"penalty, in order to try and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1235.22,"endTime":1240.71,"body":"learn it's, it's, it's how we"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1241.069,"endTime":1245.0,"body":"learn from the mistakes, that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1241.069,"endTime":1245.0,"body":"important. And so making a safe"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1245.0,"endTime":1251.029,"body":"environment for your team to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1245.0,"endTime":1251.029,"body":"able to try new things and have"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1251.029,"endTime":1255.799,"body":"that growth and learning mindset"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1251.029,"endTime":1255.799,"body":"is, I think the only way that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1255.799,"endTime":1259.069,"body":"we're going to make our teams"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1255.799,"endTime":1259.069,"body":"better and our organization"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1259.069,"endTime":1264.47,"body":"better. So that's, it is really"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1259.069,"endTime":1264.47,"body":"important to me to create that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1264.47,"endTime":1266.99,"body":"kind of safe area to do that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1264.47,"endTime":1266.99,"body":"work in it."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1267.029,"endTime":1268.799,"body":"Can you talk a little"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1267.029,"endTime":1268.799,"body":"bit more about some specific"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1268.799,"endTime":1272.519,"body":"techniques you use to foster"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1268.799,"endTime":1272.519,"body":"psychological, psychological"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1272.519,"endTime":1276.72,"body":"safety within your team? you'd"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1272.519,"endTime":1276.72,"body":"mentioned that, you know, making"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1276.75,"endTime":1280.799,"body":"failures explicitly. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1276.75,"endTime":1280.799,"body":"right, and risk. But what are"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1280.799,"endTime":1284.819,"body":"some other like techniques that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1280.799,"endTime":1284.819,"body":"you use to help your team feel"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1284.819,"endTime":1285.869,"body":"safe all together."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1286.529,"endTime":1291.329,"body":"So I, as a person who"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1286.529,"endTime":1291.329,"body":"has been technology person most"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1291.329,"endTime":1294.69,"body":"of their life, and who's been"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1291.329,"endTime":1294.69,"body":"mainly focused on development"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1294.69,"endTime":1297.96,"body":"and experiences like that, I had"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1294.69,"endTime":1297.96,"body":"to kind of learn a little bit"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1297.96,"endTime":1302.46,"body":"more about what it is to be a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1297.96,"endTime":1302.46,"body":"manager and to manage people. So"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1302.49,"endTime":1306.42,"body":"I know this month that Virtual"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1302.49,"endTime":1306.42,"body":"Coffee, were reading Radical"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1306.42,"endTime":1310.289,"body":"Candor, which is a really"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1306.42,"endTime":1310.289,"body":"excellent book for learning how"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1310.289,"endTime":1313.68,"body":"to have conversations with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1310.289,"endTime":1313.68,"body":"people that are helpful to them."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1314.279,"endTime":1317.819,"body":"I used to be, if you've read"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1314.279,"endTime":1317.819,"body":"that book, you'll you'll"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1317.819,"endTime":1321.779,"body":"understand the term ruinous"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1317.819,"endTime":1321.779,"body":"empathy, like I felt bad for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1321.779,"endTime":1325.65,"body":"people, all the time, people"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1321.779,"endTime":1325.65,"body":"that I worked with that I you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1325.65,"endTime":1329.16,"body":"know, that were having troubles"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1325.65,"endTime":1329.16,"body":"with things. But instead of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1329.759,"endTime":1333.96,"body":"politely and directly giving"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1329.759,"endTime":1333.96,"body":"them the feedback and criticism"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1333.96,"endTime":1338.25,"body":"that they need, I would just be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1333.96,"endTime":1338.25,"body":"saying, \"Oh, it's okay. Well,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1338.25,"endTime":1340.92,"body":"we'll try to, we'll, we'll try"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1338.25,"endTime":1340.92,"body":"to fix it together.\" And then"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1340.92,"endTime":1344.009,"body":"I'd go back and fix their,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1340.92,"endTime":1344.009,"body":"whatever was broken, that didn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1344.009,"endTime":1347.009,"body":"help them improve. It didn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1344.009,"endTime":1347.009,"body":"give them the opportunity to to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1347.009,"endTime":1353.609,"body":"learn. It was it was, it was a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1347.009,"endTime":1353.609,"body":"problem for everyone to kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1353.609,"endTime":1357.39,"body":"cover that pain. And that that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1353.609,"endTime":1357.39,"body":"goes back to like DevOps is an"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1357.39,"endTime":1361.589,"body":"important part of DevOps is that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1357.39,"endTime":1361.589,"body":"shared pain, like you don't hide"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1362.099,"endTime":1368.49,"body":"the pain, that one process or"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1362.099,"endTime":1368.49,"body":"area or effort brings you, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1368.67,"endTime":1372.66,"body":"expose it and bring it out,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1368.67,"endTime":1372.66,"body":"bring it up and say, Hey, this"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1372.66,"endTime":1375.779,"body":"is something that's causing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1372.66,"endTime":1375.779,"body":"people problems, let's work"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1375.779,"endTime":1382.74,"body":"together to fix it. We have to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1375.779,"endTime":1382.74,"body":"have to be professionally direct"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1383.099,"endTime":1388.74,"body":"in those times. Because if we're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1383.099,"endTime":1388.74,"body":"if we're not, we're not"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1388.98,"endTime":1395.609,"body":"improving the space that we're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1388.98,"endTime":1395.609,"body":"in. I mean, I work at an ad"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1395.609,"endTime":1400.769,"body":"agency. So it's, it's it can be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1395.609,"endTime":1400.769,"body":"hectic at times, and it even 10"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1400.769,"endTime":1404.91,"body":"years ago, it used to be like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1400.769,"endTime":1404.91,"body":"hey, we'd get a project started"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1404.91,"endTime":1407.73,"body":"on Monday might have to have"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1404.91,"endTime":1407.73,"body":"something launched by Saturday"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1407.73,"endTime":1410.16,"body":"night, and it would just be work"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1407.73,"endTime":1410.16,"body":"all hours until it's done."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1411.45,"endTime":1415.47,"body":"Bringing up those types of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1411.45,"endTime":1415.47,"body":"things is difficult. But we"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1415.47,"endTime":1419.25,"body":"built up the trust with people"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1415.47,"endTime":1419.25,"body":"to recognize, hey, maybe a 40"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1419.25,"endTime":1422.16,"body":"Hour Workweek is better for us"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1419.25,"endTime":1422.16,"body":"in the long term. Well, how do"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1422.16,"endTime":1425.579,"body":"we get to that point? Well, for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1422.16,"endTime":1425.579,"body":"one thing, we can automate more"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1425.579,"endTime":1430.17,"body":"so that we don't have to keep"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1425.579,"endTime":1430.17,"body":"wasting two hours rolling code,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1430.17,"endTime":1433.38,"body":"we can press a button and go to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1430.17,"endTime":1433.38,"body":"sleep, or press a button and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1433.38,"endTime":1437.789,"body":"give the output to someone else."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1433.38,"endTime":1437.789,"body":"So working, working together in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1437.789,"endTime":1442.589,"body":"that space, is how we got there."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1437.789,"endTime":1442.589,"body":"And the only way to do that is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1442.589,"endTime":1446.039,"body":"to just say, Hey, this is a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1442.589,"endTime":1446.039,"body":"problem. We need to fix it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1446.039,"endTime":1451.829,"body":"together. And say it over and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1446.039,"endTime":1451.829,"body":"over again, in as polite and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1451.829,"endTime":1454.71,"body":"professional manner as you can"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1451.829,"endTime":1454.71,"body":"and hopefully, someone will"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1454.71,"endTime":1458.64,"body":"eventually pay attention. And if"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1454.71,"endTime":1458.64,"body":"if they don't, you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1458.64,"endTime":1462.66,"body":"it's not the best culture or the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1458.64,"endTime":1462.66,"body":"best place. There are things you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1462.66,"endTime":1466.859,"body":"can do to help improve it, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1462.66,"endTime":1466.859,"body":"for some, some places, there's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1466.859,"endTime":1468.779,"body":"only so much you can do. I'll"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1466.859,"endTime":1468.779,"body":"I'll tell you that."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1469.74,"endTime":1472.319,"body":"Yeah, I'm sure that's"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1469.74,"endTime":1472.319,"body":"true. I was going to ask like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1472.319,"endTime":1478.349,"body":"how, how, I mean, this sort of"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1472.319,"endTime":1478.349,"body":"thing has to come down from you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1478.349,"endTime":1481.65,"body":"know, like, has to have support,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1478.349,"endTime":1481.65,"body":"you know, further up the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1481.68,"endTime":1484.47,"body":"management tree, for instance,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1481.68,"endTime":1484.47,"body":"you know, I was just like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1484.47,"endTime":1487.74,"body":"wondering how far up you feel"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1484.47,"endTime":1487.74,"body":"like this, this sort of"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1487.829,"endTime":1493.44,"body":"approach, you know, is directed"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1487.829,"endTime":1493.44,"body":"in your organization."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1494.549,"endTime":1498.39,"body":"Now, at this moment,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1494.549,"endTime":1498.39,"body":"yeah, everything around the idea"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1498.39,"endTime":1504.75,"body":"of DevOps is embraced And Heck,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1498.39,"endTime":1504.75,"body":"it's used as a selling point for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1504.75,"endTime":1509.009,"body":"clients that we're, we work in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1504.75,"endTime":1509.009,"body":"this manner. And it's to the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1509.009,"endTime":1514.019,"body":"benefit of everybody, including"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1509.009,"endTime":1514.019,"body":"the teams we're working with."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1514.019,"endTime":1517.019,"body":"And, and eventually, the end"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1514.019,"endTime":1517.019,"body":"user and customer that we're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1517.019,"endTime":1523.65,"body":"dealing with. We took it as a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1517.019,"endTime":1523.65,"body":"bottom up kind of approach, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1523.65,"endTime":1527.7,"body":"didn't ask for management buy in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1523.65,"endTime":1527.7,"body":"to start doing these things, we"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1527.7,"endTime":1535.079,"body":"found areas where we could eke"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1527.7,"endTime":1535.079,"body":"into improvements. I've always"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1536.069,"endTime":1540.48,"body":"leaned towards the ask for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1536.069,"endTime":1540.48,"body":"forgiveness rather than"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1540.48,"endTime":1547.289,"body":"permission. When I when I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1540.48,"endTime":1547.289,"body":"doing work, mainly because I, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1547.289,"endTime":1549.69,"body":"figure, the worst that can"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1547.289,"endTime":1549.69,"body":"happen is someone just fires me"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1549.69,"endTime":1554.549,"body":"and I go find a new job. But I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1549.69,"endTime":1554.549,"body":"have that kind of like risk. I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1554.549,"endTime":1557.91,"body":"normally risk averse in my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1554.549,"endTime":1557.91,"body":"personal life. But like, in my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1557.91,"endTime":1562.2,"body":"professional life, I'm like YOLO"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1557.91,"endTime":1562.2,"body":"pride, you know, let's, let's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1562.2,"endTime":1564.059,"body":"go, let's go get this done."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1564.779,"endTime":1567.269,"body":"So an example of"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1564.779,"endTime":1567.269,"body":"something like that would be,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1567.42,"endTime":1571.079,"body":"you have a project and you could"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1567.42,"endTime":1571.079,"body":"like power through it quickly."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1571.109,"endTime":1573.48,"body":"But if you spend a little more"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1571.109,"endTime":1573.48,"body":"time, you know, working through"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1573.48,"endTime":1576.93,"body":"some automations, or some some"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1573.48,"endTime":1576.93,"body":"of the things like that, the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1576.93,"endTime":1579.869,"body":"product will be different, like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1576.93,"endTime":1579.869,"body":"it might take a little bit"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1579.9,"endTime":1582.99,"body":"longer to get out the door, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1579.9,"endTime":1582.99,"body":"the first time or something, but"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1582.99,"endTime":1587.91,"body":"then the full product will be"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1582.99,"endTime":1587.91,"body":"much more valuable. Right. Is"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1587.91,"endTime":1590.19,"body":"that? Am I mistaken? That kind"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1587.91,"endTime":1590.19,"body":"of correctly?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1590.22,"endTime":1593.789,"body":"Yeah, that's exactly"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1590.22,"endTime":1593.789,"body":"what I mean. Investing some time"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1593.789,"endTime":1601.259,"body":"up front to save you long run."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1593.789,"endTime":1601.259,"body":"Time is the way we mentally"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1601.259,"endTime":1605.97,"body":"operates. Right now. I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1601.259,"endTime":1605.97,"body":"thinking of my future self is my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1605.97,"endTime":1608.819,"body":"future self going to be happy"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1605.97,"endTime":1608.819,"body":"that I created this build"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1608.819,"endTime":1614.16,"body":"pipeline, so that I can give"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1608.819,"endTime":1614.16,"body":"developer a button to press when"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1614.16,"endTime":1617.97,"body":"they need it? Yeah, my future"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1614.16,"endTime":1617.97,"body":"self is going to be really happy"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1617.97,"endTime":1622.829,"body":"that my past self did that, that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1617.97,"endTime":1622.829,"body":"work ahead of time, it does take"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1624.359,"endTime":1627.75,"body":"you know, I talked about"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1624.359,"endTime":1627.75,"body":"building those relationships up,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1628.41,"endTime":1632.25,"body":"I had to start making sure that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1628.41,"endTime":1632.25,"body":"people who were going in on"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1632.25,"endTime":1638.25,"body":"like, client pitches and people"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1632.25,"endTime":1638.25,"body":"who were working directly with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1638.25,"endTime":1642.93,"body":"clients and creating scopes to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1638.25,"endTime":1642.93,"body":"work off of understood the lead"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1642.93,"endTime":1646.769,"body":"time we needed in order to make"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1642.93,"endTime":1646.769,"body":"the project successful. That"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1646.769,"endTime":1650.22,"body":"also took that kind of like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1646.769,"endTime":1650.22,"body":"hey, let's have a cup of coffee."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1650.22,"endTime":1653.7,"body":"And I can explain, this is how"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1650.22,"endTime":1653.7,"body":"we work. And this is what we're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1653.7,"endTime":1658.349,"body":"trying to do. And if you you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1653.7,"endTime":1658.349,"body":"know, redline this line item in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1658.349,"endTime":1661.71,"body":"the scope, you're actually going"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1658.349,"endTime":1661.71,"body":"to cost yourself more money in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1661.71,"endTime":1666.269,"body":"this time period in the future,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1661.71,"endTime":1666.269,"body":"because you didn't invest this"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1666.269,"endTime":1671.22,"body":"time up front. So you can either"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1666.269,"endTime":1671.22,"body":"invest front heavy on our sort"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1671.22,"endTime":1673.95,"body":"of building the automated"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1671.22,"endTime":1673.95,"body":"processes, or you're going to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1673.95,"endTime":1677.579,"body":"pay more over the entire life of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1673.95,"endTime":1677.579,"body":"the project to have someone"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1677.64,"endTime":1682.23,"body":"available all hours of the day"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1677.64,"endTime":1682.23,"body":"to get this work done. So it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1682.23,"endTime":1685.38,"body":"does require a little bit of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1682.23,"endTime":1685.38,"body":"storytelling to make sure people"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1685.38,"endTime":1690.15,"body":"understand, hey, this, this is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1685.38,"endTime":1690.15,"body":"why we're doing this. You can't"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1691.079,"endTime":1695.039,"body":"build the landing gear while the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1691.079,"endTime":1695.039,"body":"plane is flying. You should have"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1695.039,"endTime":1697.559,"body":"done that, you know, before you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1695.039,"endTime":1697.559,"body":"even took off, right?"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1698.519,"endTime":1702.779,"body":"Yeah. So it"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1698.519,"endTime":1702.779,"body":"sounds like you are also"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1702.779,"endTime":1706.109,"body":"investing time in the people,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1702.779,"endTime":1706.109,"body":"right? Because you have to have"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1706.109,"endTime":1711.69,"body":"those relationships, and try and"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1706.109,"endTime":1711.69,"body":"get people to trust you. And"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1711.69,"endTime":1714.24,"body":"that's gonna save you time in"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1711.69,"endTime":1714.24,"body":"the long run, right? Because I"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1714.24,"endTime":1718.17,"body":"find that, you know, avoiding"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1714.24,"endTime":1718.17,"body":"hard conversations are trying to"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1718.17,"endTime":1723.329,"body":"work around them, they have a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1718.17,"endTime":1723.329,"body":"way of coming back and creating"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1723.329,"endTime":1726.089,"body":"something that's much more"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1723.329,"endTime":1726.089,"body":"challenging to deal with rather"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1726.089,"endTime":1729.269,"body":"than, like, okay, let's get this"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1726.089,"endTime":1729.269,"body":"out now, or let's talk about"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1729.269,"endTime":1732.18,"body":"this, or let's grab a cup of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1729.269,"endTime":1732.18,"body":"coffee and get to know each"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1732.18,"endTime":1735.39,"body":"other a little bit. Because then"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1732.18,"endTime":1735.39,"body":"you have a relationship where"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1735.39,"endTime":1737.16,"body":"you can be more honest with that"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1735.39,"endTime":1737.16,"body":"person."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1737.91,"endTime":1743.43,"body":"Absolutely. It's, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1737.91,"endTime":1743.43,"body":"the part of the job that I like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1743.43,"endTime":1748.619,"body":"the most is to, to foster that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1743.43,"endTime":1748.619,"body":"kind of friendship, work,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1748.98,"endTime":1755.67,"body":"friendship with people to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1748.98,"endTime":1755.67,"body":"understand what they're doing,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1755.94,"endTime":1759.839,"body":"and how it applies to the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1755.94,"endTime":1759.839,"body":"problems I'm trying to solve."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1760.65,"endTime":1768.059,"body":"And then and in telling them how"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1760.65,"endTime":1768.059,"body":"look, Okay, I see I see here,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1768.42,"endTime":1771.329,"body":"when you're when you're selling"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1768.42,"endTime":1771.329,"body":"the client this, here's what you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1771.329,"endTime":1775.349,"body":"want to tell them so that they"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1771.329,"endTime":1775.349,"body":"don't like cross off this line"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1775.349,"endTime":1778.68,"body":"in the scope thing. I'm not"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1775.349,"endTime":1778.68,"body":"paying for that. Like No, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1778.68,"endTime":1781.769,"body":"built in to the kind of agile"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1778.68,"endTime":1781.769,"body":"work that we're doing in order"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1781.769,"endTime":1786.69,"body":"to save you like how we used to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1781.769,"endTime":1786.69,"body":"sell agile and working in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1786.69,"endTime":1789.359,"body":"Sprint's to clients is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1786.69,"endTime":1789.359,"body":"completely different now than it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1789.359,"endTime":1793.23,"body":"was even a couple of years ago."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1789.359,"endTime":1793.23,"body":"How many clients wanted to say,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1793.259,"endTime":1797.4,"body":"oh, you're going to pay for a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1793.259,"endTime":1797.4,"body":"team of this size for this long"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1797.4,"endTime":1800.009,"body":"and we're not going to commit to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1797.4,"endTime":1800.009,"body":"saying we'll get this done."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1800.279,"endTime":1803.819,"body":"We're just going to say how many"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1800.279,"endTime":1803.819,"body":"points during this sprint, we're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1803.819,"endTime":1806.009,"body":"going to get done, and then this"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1803.819,"endTime":1806.009,"body":"sprint, and then this sprint,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1806.579,"endTime":1809.43,"body":"but we can't exactly tell you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1806.579,"endTime":1809.43,"body":"what releases are going to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1809.43,"endTime":1812.039,"body":"out the door, like, what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1809.43,"endTime":1812.039,"body":"features are going to be done,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1812.4,"endTime":1815.88,"body":"you, you're buying out a team"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1812.4,"endTime":1815.88,"body":"for this loan, that didn't work,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1815.91,"endTime":1819.24,"body":"even three or four years ago, no"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1815.91,"endTime":1819.24,"body":"one, no one would buy out a team"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1819.24,"endTime":1823.44,"body":"to work on projects like that. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1819.24,"endTime":1823.44,"body":"mean, a handful of larger"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1823.44,"endTime":1826.47,"body":"organizations may have"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1823.44,"endTime":1826.47,"body":"understood the value. But DevOps"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1826.47,"endTime":1829.049,"body":"is sort of like that, it's like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1826.47,"endTime":1829.049,"body":"oh, you're going to pay for this"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1829.049,"endTime":1833.519,"body":"up front, so that you save"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1829.049,"endTime":1833.519,"body":"yourself, the time and the money"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1833.519,"endTime":1837.63,"body":"in the long run, being able to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1833.519,"endTime":1837.63,"body":"tell that story through, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1837.63,"endTime":1841.079,"body":"know, creating slides and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1837.63,"endTime":1841.079,"body":"visualization for teams, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1841.079,"endTime":1843.96,"body":"know, selling our services,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1841.079,"endTime":1843.96,"body":"that's, that's an area where"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1843.96,"endTime":1847.859,"body":"I've had to learn, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1843.96,"endTime":1847.859,"body":"some new skills. But again, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1847.859,"endTime":1851.039,"body":"fostered the right kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1847.859,"endTime":1851.039,"body":"friendship inside the office to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1851.039,"endTime":1854.19,"body":"say, hey, this person actually"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1851.039,"endTime":1854.19,"body":"works in the creative department"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1854.19,"endTime":1856.829,"body":"and has a bunch of slides that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1854.19,"endTime":1856.829,"body":"we can use, and then I can just"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1856.829,"endTime":1862.17,"body":"layer some stuff on top of so"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1856.829,"endTime":1862.17,"body":"that Kismet of like randomly"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1862.17,"endTime":1865.049,"body":"running into people in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1862.17,"endTime":1865.049,"body":"office is still something that I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1865.17,"endTime":1868.799,"body":"hope I eventually get back to,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1865.17,"endTime":1868.799,"body":"so that I can still foster those"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1868.799,"endTime":1873.42,"body":"relationships a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1868.799,"endTime":1873.42,"body":"challenging. In a kind of remote"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1873.42,"endTime":1877.89,"body":"world, but I it's, it's still"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1873.42,"endTime":1877.89,"body":"important, there's ways to do"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1877.89,"endTime":1883.38,"body":"it. And we're still trying to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1877.89,"endTime":1883.38,"body":"reach reach the reach the parts"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1883.38,"endTime":1885.69,"body":"of the organizations, we're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1883.38,"endTime":1885.69,"body":"still trying to learn more about"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1885.69,"endTime":1890.579,"body":"how to interact with and how to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1885.69,"endTime":1890.579,"body":"engage with, even in the even in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1890.579,"endTime":1891.96,"body":"the remote sense."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1893.849,"endTime":1898.259,"body":"That's cool, it's cool"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1893.849,"endTime":1898.259,"body":"that you have, I don't know that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1898.259,"endTime":1900.99,"body":"the freedom to be able to do"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1898.259,"endTime":1900.99,"body":"that, right, that you're not"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1900.99,"endTime":1904.38,"body":"like stuck and stuck in silos or"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1900.99,"endTime":1904.38,"body":"being told to you know, stay in"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1904.38,"endTime":1907.41,"body":"your, your zone or whatever, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1904.38,"endTime":1907.41,"body":"know, in your organization."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1907.44,"endTime":1910.17,"body":"I've been told to stay"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1907.44,"endTime":1910.17,"body":"in my zone a couple of times and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1910.17,"endTime":1911.43,"body":"stay in my lane a couple of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1910.17,"endTime":1911.43,"body":"times."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1911.46,"endTime":1916.829,"body":"Well sure, but, but you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1911.46,"endTime":1916.829,"body":"didn't get fired, right. So..."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1917.22,"endTime":1918.059,"body":"no, I did not."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1919.619,"endTime":1920.549,"body":"I think that's really"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":1919.619,"endTime":1920.549,"body":"cool."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1921.539,"endTime":1925.2,"body":"So how do"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1921.539,"endTime":1925.2,"body":"you deal with challenges or"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1925.2,"endTime":1928.17,"body":"pushback on the things that"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1925.2,"endTime":1928.17,"body":"you're trying to do? I guess,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1928.17,"endTime":1933.359,"body":"like, Is there an approach to?"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1928.17,"endTime":1933.359,"body":"Well, I guess I don't I don't"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1933.359,"endTime":1935.19,"body":"want to lead the question. So if"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":1933.359,"endTime":1935.19,"body":"you..."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1936.029,"endTime":1938.91,"body":"Oh, how do I deal with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1936.029,"endTime":1938.91,"body":"the challenges of it? Well,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1938.94,"endTime":1946.049,"body":"there are, there definitely is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1938.94,"endTime":1946.049,"body":"pushback. And there's some I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1946.049,"endTime":1948.93,"body":"want to say Old Guard mentality,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1946.049,"endTime":1948.93,"body":"I think that's probably the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1948.93,"endTime":1954.299,"body":"closest way to describe it."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1948.93,"endTime":1954.299,"body":"People who are coming from their"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1954.299,"endTime":1958.079,"body":"industry experience was 1520"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1954.299,"endTime":1958.079,"body":"years ago. And that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1958.079,"endTime":1962.91,"body":"what they stuck with. Changing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1958.079,"endTime":1962.91,"body":"that kind of mindset. As proven"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1962.91,"endTime":1967.829,"body":"to be very difficult. I, we"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1962.91,"endTime":1967.829,"body":"sometimes bring in senior"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1967.829,"endTime":1973.769,"body":"engineers, for a specific client"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1967.829,"endTime":1973.769,"body":"project technology stack needs,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1974.46,"endTime":1978.15,"body":"and changing how they think has"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1974.46,"endTime":1978.15,"body":"been more challenging than then"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1979.049,"endTime":1984.99,"body":"maybe hiring more junior entry"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1979.049,"endTime":1984.99,"body":"level boot camp type grads, so"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1984.99,"endTime":1989.4,"body":"we have a tech apprenticeship"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1984.99,"endTime":1989.4,"body":"program now that we're, we we've"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1989.4,"endTime":1992.099,"body":"brought in some apprentices that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1989.4,"endTime":1992.099,"body":"are coming from, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1992.13,"endTime":1998.49,"body":"career switching and their the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1992.13,"endTime":1998.49,"body":"fact that they're learning"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1998.49,"endTime":2003.38,"body":"something like technology, after"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":1998.49,"endTime":2003.38,"body":"another career has proven to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2003.41,"endTime":2009.65,"body":"invaluable to, to bring in and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2003.41,"endTime":2009.65,"body":"they're more flexible and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2009.65,"endTime":2013.009,"body":"understanding Oh, well, this"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2009.65,"endTime":2013.009,"body":"person, just, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2013.009,"endTime":2015.559,"body":"don't want to do it this way,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2013.009,"endTime":2015.559,"body":"that's fine. We'll just we'll do"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2015.559,"endTime":2019.579,"body":"it their way, and then show them"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2015.559,"endTime":2019.579,"body":"and explain to them and train"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2019.579,"endTime":2026.599,"body":"them. It's it's a more patient"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2019.579,"endTime":2026.599,"body":"approach. It's what I end up"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2026.599,"endTime":2029.299,"body":"doing. A lot of times when I get"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2026.599,"endTime":2029.299,"body":"pushback of I want to spend the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2029.299,"endTime":2032.66,"body":"time upfront to automate this, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2029.299,"endTime":2032.66,"body":"want to build this"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2032.779,"endTime":2038.66,"body":"infrastructure using terraform,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2032.779,"endTime":2038.66,"body":"or something like that. I, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2039.019,"endTime":2042.68,"body":"actually show and explain. If I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2039.019,"endTime":2042.68,"body":"build it with terraform versus"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2042.68,"endTime":2045.17,"body":"build it by hand, it's going to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2042.68,"endTime":2045.17,"body":"take this amount of time for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2045.38,"endTime":2049.219,"body":"this amount of time. But if I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2045.38,"endTime":2049.219,"body":"need to scale up this"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2049.219,"endTime":2053.389,"body":"environment, to like 10, times"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2049.219,"endTime":2053.389,"body":"the number of systems very"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2053.389,"endTime":2057.23,"body":"quickly, because you said there"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2053.389,"endTime":2057.23,"body":"was a possibility, this may have"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2057.23,"endTime":2061.13,"body":"to scale very quickly. I just"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2057.23,"endTime":2061.13,"body":"changed, increment this number,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2061.28,"endTime":2064.909,"body":"and boom, we have 10 systems."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2061.28,"endTime":2064.909,"body":"Whereas here, I would have to do"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2064.909,"endTime":2069.11,"body":"that one time, effort 10 more"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2064.909,"endTime":2069.11,"body":"times. So like being able to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2069.139,"endTime":2074.15,"body":"like just instead of getting"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2069.139,"endTime":2074.15,"body":"frustrated and saying, No, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2074.15,"endTime":2076.489,"body":"have to do it my way. Why are"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2074.15,"endTime":2076.489,"body":"you arguing with me? I tried to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2076.489,"endTime":2080.179,"body":"understand, like, it's really"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2076.489,"endTime":2080.179,"body":"hard to just sit and go, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2080.389,"endTime":2082.46,"body":"what is it that you're actually"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2080.389,"endTime":2082.46,"body":"complaining about? are you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2082.46,"endTime":2084.889,"body":"complaining because it's going"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2082.46,"endTime":2084.889,"body":"to take me two weeks longer?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2085.429,"endTime":2089.09,"body":"Well, okay, let's bring in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2085.429,"endTime":2089.09,"body":"another resource. I can borrow"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2089.09,"endTime":2092.57,"body":"one of your developers, I can a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2089.09,"endTime":2092.57,"body":"developer can learn you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2092.57,"endTime":2097.46,"body":"some YAML configuration based"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2092.57,"endTime":2097.46,"body":"language like terraform and and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2097.46,"endTime":2102.349,"body":"help me out here. So We try to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2097.46,"endTime":2102.349,"body":"find, you know, unique solutions"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2102.349,"endTime":2107.15,"body":"that way. It's it's active"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2102.349,"endTime":2107.15,"body":"listening, you know that the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2107.15,"endTime":2110.869,"body":"whole, like, back to thinking"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2107.15,"endTime":2110.869,"body":"about communication studies"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2112.01,"endTime":2115.849,"body":"being an active listener and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2112.01,"endTime":2115.849,"body":"actually trying to Okay, let me"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2115.849,"endTime":2120.139,"body":"let me rephrase what you're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2115.849,"endTime":2120.139,"body":"telling me. And sometimes that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2120.5,"endTime":2123.769,"body":"the simplest way to get back to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2120.5,"endTime":2123.769,"body":"the solutions where people are."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2123.949,"endTime":2125.599,"body":"People are really pushing back"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2123.949,"endTime":2125.599,"body":"against you."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2127.159,"endTime":2133.519,"body":"Yeah, I like that."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2127.159,"endTime":2133.519,"body":"Colleen's podcast, social, man."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2133.519,"endTime":2137.239,"body":"I'm blanking on the name."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2133.519,"endTime":2137.239,"body":"Colleen has a podcast--Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2137.3,"endTime":2139.219,"body":"yeah--Software Social sorry,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2137.3,"endTime":2139.219,"body":"she, she has a podcast, and they"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2139.219,"endTime":2144.199,"body":"just did user interview with it."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2139.219,"endTime":2144.199,"body":"Like they did a two parter where"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2144.199,"endTime":2147.98,"body":"they interviewed Drew actually"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2144.199,"endTime":2147.98,"body":"from Virtual Coffee, but for"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2147.98,"endTime":2152.539,"body":"Colleen's app, and then as the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2147.98,"endTime":2152.539,"body":"host, Michelle, is that her"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2152.539,"endTime":2156.559,"body":"name? Yeah. So she did the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2152.539,"endTime":2156.559,"body":"interview. And then the second"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2156.889,"endTime":2161.09,"body":"part was, Colleen, like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2156.889,"endTime":2161.09,"body":"reacting to it or whatever. And"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2161.09,"endTime":2163.579,"body":"Michelle was talking a lot about"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2161.09,"endTime":2163.579,"body":"that active listening, and that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2163.579,"endTime":2167.69,"body":"technique of rephrasing"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2163.579,"endTime":2167.69,"body":"something that somebody said, or"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2167.69,"endTime":2173.48,"body":"like, to get them to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2167.69,"endTime":2173.48,"body":"sort of talk more about it. And"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2173.48,"endTime":2176.51,"body":"she said, she actually will do"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2173.48,"endTime":2176.51,"body":"this, or maybe she used to"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2176.51,"endTime":2178.489,"body":"because she didn't use her"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2176.51,"endTime":2178.489,"body":"interviews for like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2178.67,"endTime":2184.579,"body":"for work and would rephrase"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2178.67,"endTime":2184.579,"body":"something, but Excuse me, but,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2184.61,"endTime":2188.51,"body":"um, intentionally mess it up a"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2184.61,"endTime":2188.51,"body":"little bit, you know, and to get"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2188.51,"endTime":2191.809,"body":"them to get a person, and this"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2188.51,"endTime":2191.809,"body":"wasn't even tech, this is like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2192.289,"endTime":2195.32,"body":"any, any user, you know, but"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2192.289,"endTime":2195.32,"body":"like to get them to talk up,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2195.349,"endTime":2197.659,"body":"like, explain why, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2195.349,"endTime":2197.659,"body":"like, talk more about their,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2197.96,"endTime":2201.53,"body":"their, whatever was, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2197.96,"endTime":2201.53,"body":"their farm or whatever it was,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2201.53,"endTime":2203.03,"body":"you know, that she's"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2201.53,"endTime":2203.03,"body":"interviewing, I thought that was"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2203.599,"endTime":2204.8,"body":"a cool, cool idea."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2205.409,"endTime":2207.57,"body":"That is a really good"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2205.409,"endTime":2207.57,"body":"technique. I'm gonna have to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2207.57,"endTime":2210.48,"body":"remember that. Yeah, yeah. You"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2207.57,"endTime":2210.48,"body":"mean to say sort of like a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2210.48,"endTime":2213.9,"body":"really annoying clipping like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2210.48,"endTime":2213.9,"body":"Did you mean to? Did you mean to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2213.9,"endTime":2217.409,"body":"say this? No, that's not what I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2213.9,"endTime":2217.409,"body":"said at all. Let me explain it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2217.409,"endTime":2220.11,"body":"better. Oh, that would be great."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2217.409,"endTime":2220.11,"body":"I would love it, if you would"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2220.11,"endTime":2221.01,"body":"explain it better."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2221.51,"endTime":2223.67,"body":"Yeah, yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2221.51,"endTime":2223.67,"body":"That's pretty much exactly it."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2223.73,"endTime":2227.48,"body":"You know, she, I mean, she, she"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2223.73,"endTime":2227.48,"body":"was talking about how she would"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2227.48,"endTime":2230.9,"body":"lean on because she was younger,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2227.48,"endTime":2230.9,"body":"I think and would lean on, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2230.9,"endTime":2233.599,"body":"know, people's, she's"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2230.9,"endTime":2233.599,"body":"interviewing men and would lean"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2233.599,"endTime":2237.559,"body":"on the assumptions, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2233.599,"endTime":2237.559,"body":"sort of, of talking to a young"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2237.559,"endTime":2241.159,"body":"woman, you know, we're like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2237.559,"endTime":2241.159,"body":"and, like, let the but like, but"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2241.19,"endTime":2244.159,"body":"her job was at the time was"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2241.19,"endTime":2244.159,"body":"getting the person to talk, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2244.159,"endTime":2247.789,"body":"know what I mean? And so she"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2244.159,"endTime":2247.789,"body":"would sort of make mistakes on"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2247.789,"endTime":2250.76,"body":"purpose. Just to get them to do"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2247.789,"endTime":2250.76,"body":"exactly what he said, No, no,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2250.76,"endTime":2254.57,"body":"that's not it at all. Let me"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2250.76,"endTime":2254.57,"body":"explain it. I thought that was"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2254.57,"endTime":2255.019,"body":"really great."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2255.53,"endTime":2259.579,"body":"I seen that technique"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2255.53,"endTime":2259.579,"body":"in action. My wife is actually a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2259.61,"endTime":2262.88,"body":"broadcast journalism major, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2259.61,"endTime":2262.88,"body":"was in the field for a few"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2262.88,"endTime":2267.59,"body":"years. And I'm like, every once"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2262.88,"endTime":2267.59,"body":"in a while, like, Are you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2267.59,"endTime":2271.159,"body":"trying? Are you trying to get me"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2267.59,"endTime":2271.159,"body":"to say more about what I mean?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2271.19,"endTime":2274.699,"body":"Like, like that, that's a pretty"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2271.19,"endTime":2274.699,"body":"interesting technique right"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2274.699,"endTime":2279.469,"body":"there. So yeah, it's, it's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2274.699,"endTime":2279.469,"body":"good tool in the belt to have in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2279.469,"endTime":2284.21,"body":"the building relationships with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2279.469,"endTime":2284.21,"body":"people that you work with. So I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2284.57,"endTime":2286.55,"body":"love it, I need to use it more."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2288.53,"endTime":2292.789,"body":"That's awesome. I like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2288.53,"endTime":2292.789,"body":"I like coming to it with that,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2293.0,"endTime":2298.4,"body":"that sort of attitude, right?"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2293.0,"endTime":2298.4,"body":"Like that. You know, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2298.4,"endTime":2300.769,"body":"think of active when I hear"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2298.4,"endTime":2300.769,"body":"active listening, I think of"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2301.28,"endTime":2304.46,"body":"interviews and stuff like that,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2301.28,"endTime":2304.46,"body":"but you know, even doing it with"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2304.46,"endTime":2307.25,"body":"your with teammates, and trying"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2304.46,"endTime":2307.25,"body":"to try to just like dig into,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2307.489,"endTime":2310.46,"body":"like, what problem we're trying"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2307.489,"endTime":2310.46,"body":"to solve, you know, like, or why"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2310.46,"endTime":2314.179,"body":"we're trying to, like, somebody"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2310.46,"endTime":2314.179,"body":"comes and asks you for some"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2314.179,"endTime":2317.51,"body":"pipeline or, or whatever, but"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2314.179,"endTime":2317.51,"body":"digging in and finding like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2317.51,"endTime":2319.82,"body":"what the root of the thing that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2317.51,"endTime":2319.82,"body":"they actually want is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2320.239,"endTime":2323.75,"body":"is, is like an interesting"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2320.239,"endTime":2323.75,"body":"skill, it's something I'm always"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2323.75,"endTime":2328.519,"body":"trying to practice by Vince,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2323.75,"endTime":2328.519,"body":"the, the guy I work with, is"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2328.519,"endTime":2334.519,"body":"like a master at that, of, of"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2328.519,"endTime":2334.519,"body":"like, somebody will come and one"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2334.519,"endTime":2338.179,"body":"of our one of our clients have a"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2334.519,"endTime":2338.179,"body":"long term client. They are they"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2338.179,"endTime":2340.67,"body":"do deck construction, and came"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2338.179,"endTime":2340.67,"body":"in and said, they want a"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2340.67,"endTime":2343.46,"body":"website, you know, and they had"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2340.67,"endTime":2343.46,"body":"gotten quotes around other"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2343.46,"endTime":2347.96,"body":"places or whatever, and then"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2343.46,"endTime":2347.96,"body":"talked to the owner for like, a"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2347.96,"endTime":2351.349,"body":"solid day. And out of that came"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2347.96,"endTime":2351.349,"body":"a contract to redesign their"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2351.349,"endTime":2355.19,"body":"logo and not nothing about"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2351.349,"endTime":2355.19,"body":"websites, redesign their logo"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2355.19,"endTime":2358.19,"body":"and and create truck decals, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2355.19,"endTime":2358.19,"body":"know, because, like, they're,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2358.429,"endTime":2362.389,"body":"like, they had some small"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2358.429,"endTime":2362.389,"body":"website, like some, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2362.42,"endTime":2365.599,"body":"whatever website, you know, but"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2362.42,"endTime":2365.599,"body":"like, their main thing, it"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2365.599,"endTime":2367.369,"body":"wasn't that they needed a"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2365.599,"endTime":2367.369,"body":"website is that they needed more"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2367.369,"endTime":2371.059,"body":"customers, you know, like, and"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2367.369,"endTime":2371.059,"body":"like, they're, like prospective"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2371.059,"endTime":2374.84,"body":"customers for them are people"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2371.059,"endTime":2374.84,"body":"like next door to the brand new"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2374.84,"endTime":2377.119,"body":"deck that they just installed"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2374.84,"endTime":2377.119,"body":"for, like the neighbors and you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2377.119,"endTime":2379.34,"body":"know, things like that. So it's"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2377.119,"endTime":2379.34,"body":"like getting a website that can"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2379.34,"endTime":2382.639,"body":"serve all the world not very"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2379.34,"endTime":2382.639,"body":"helpful for a local construction"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2382.639,"endTime":2385.579,"body":"company, necessarily. You know"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2382.639,"endTime":2385.579,"body":"what I mean? At least that is"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2385.579,"endTime":2386.389,"body":"step one, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2386.929,"endTime":2391.55,"body":"yeah, I see that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2386.929,"endTime":2391.55,"body":"happen a lot. Like, I get a lot"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2391.55,"endTime":2395.57,"body":"of JIRA tickets handed over to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2391.55,"endTime":2395.57,"body":"me or the people on my team that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2395.57,"endTime":2405.019,"body":"are Hey, can you put this config"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2395.57,"endTime":2405.019,"body":"out on this server for us. And I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2405.019,"endTime":2408.469,"body":"see those types of things right"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2405.019,"endTime":2408.469,"body":"away. And I go, No, no, no, no,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2408.469,"endTime":2411.23,"body":"tell me what to do, tell me what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2408.469,"endTime":2411.23,"body":"it is you're trying to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2411.23,"endTime":2415.099,"body":"accomplish, and I'll be happy."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2411.23,"endTime":2415.099,"body":"If it ends up being that all I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2415.099,"endTime":2418.82,"body":"have to do is put that config"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2415.099,"endTime":2418.82,"body":"out there, that's great. I can"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2418.82,"endTime":2422.09,"body":"also provide you the system for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2418.82,"endTime":2422.09,"body":"you and your team to do that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2422.09,"endTime":2426.23,"body":"yourself, rather than handing a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2422.09,"endTime":2426.23,"body":"ticket over to me. But if if all"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2426.23,"endTime":2429.17,"body":"you need is the config, great if"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2426.23,"endTime":2429.17,"body":"what you're needing is a method"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2429.17,"endTime":2433.219,"body":"to deploy that config regularly."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2429.17,"endTime":2433.219,"body":"Let's talk about that. If that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2433.219,"endTime":2436.099,"body":"not what you're meeting, needing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2433.219,"endTime":2436.099,"body":"at all, if, if you're just"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2436.46,"endTime":2438.889,"body":"having a troubleshooting"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2436.46,"endTime":2438.889,"body":"session, because you're running"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2438.889,"endTime":2442.07,"body":"into a problem, we'll just"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2438.889,"endTime":2442.07,"body":"invite me to that, and I'll help"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2442.07,"endTime":2444.8,"body":"you figure it out. I'll get"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2442.07,"endTime":2444.8,"body":"online with you and help you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2444.8,"endTime":2449.179,"body":"solve the problem. So getting"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2444.8,"endTime":2449.179,"body":"other people to recognize that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2449.179,"endTime":2455.539,"body":"sort of that same sort of issue"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2449.179,"endTime":2455.539,"body":"that pops up in a ticketing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2455.539,"endTime":2459.199,"body":"system or request where, or"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2455.539,"endTime":2459.199,"body":"someone who may not be familiar"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2459.199,"endTime":2462.349,"body":"with, like the abstractions I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2459.199,"endTime":2462.349,"body":"talked about earlier, if"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2462.349,"endTime":2464.96,"body":"they're, they're not familiar"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2462.349,"endTime":2464.96,"body":"with that, they may say, Hey,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2464.96,"endTime":2470.69,"body":"can you do this one thing for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2464.96,"endTime":2470.69,"body":"me? But really, it's what is it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2470.69,"endTime":2473.0,"body":"that you're actually trying to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2470.69,"endTime":2473.0,"body":"accomplish? What What is it you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2473.0,"endTime":2476.269,"body":"want to solve here? And let's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2473.0,"endTime":2476.269,"body":"work together to do that."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2477.53,"endTime":2481.039,"body":"Totally. There was an"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2477.53,"endTime":2481.039,"body":"anecdote in our latest developer"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2481.039,"endTime":2484.909,"body":"tea podcast actually, for and I"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2481.039,"endTime":2484.909,"body":"didn't really look up, this is"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2484.909,"endTime":2488.36,"body":"true or not, but Henry Ford was"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2484.909,"endTime":2488.36,"body":"saying, you know, if, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2488.389,"endTime":2492.559,"body":"it's the, if he just did what"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2488.389,"endTime":2492.559,"body":"users asked, they would have"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2492.559,"endTime":2495.38,"body":"just made like a faster horse,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2492.559,"endTime":2495.38,"body":"you know, instead of like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2495.38,"endTime":2496.849,"body":"building a car, you know, like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2496.909,"endTime":2499.099,"body":"that's a good"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2496.909,"endTime":2499.099,"body":"paraphrase of that. Yes."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2499.4,"endTime":2500.989,"body":"Whatever it was sorry."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2499.4,"endTime":2500.989,"body":"Yeah. I don't know what the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2500.989,"endTime":2501.23,"body":"quote is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2501.23,"endTime":2504.289,"body":"It is Henry Ford,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2501.23,"endTime":2504.289,"body":"though. I I've worked a lot with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2504.289,"endTime":2508.07,"body":"that particular client for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2504.289,"endTime":2508.07,"body":"years. So I've heard a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2508.07,"endTime":2509.03,"body":"the Henry Ford quotes."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2509.9,"endTime":2512.15,"body":"Well, there you go. But"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2509.9,"endTime":2512.15,"body":"yeah, right. So I mean, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2512.179,"endTime":2515.239,"body":"that, the what they want is to"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2512.179,"endTime":2515.239,"body":"get to another place faster, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2515.239,"endTime":2518.57,"body":"know, or easier, or whatever. I"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2515.239,"endTime":2518.57,"body":"guess in that situation, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2518.57,"endTime":2522.739,"body":"know, digging into, like, what"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2518.57,"endTime":2522.739,"body":"people are really like, wanting"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2522.769,"endTime":2527.42,"body":"is, is a skill, but also is"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2522.769,"endTime":2527.42,"body":"like, going to be much easier if"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2527.42,"endTime":2531.139,"body":"people feel safe, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2527.42,"endTime":2531.139,"body":"communicating and like, both"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2531.139,"endTime":2534.32,"body":"ways, right? Like, the person"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2531.139,"endTime":2534.32,"body":"asking feels safe. And the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2534.32,"endTime":2539.869,"body":"person, you know, on the other"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2534.32,"endTime":2539.869,"body":"end feels safe digging in, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2539.869,"endTime":2542.239,"body":"know, I mean, I do it all the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2539.869,"endTime":2542.239,"body":"time. And I like it work. And I"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2542.239,"endTime":2545.03,"body":"know that I bother some people"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2542.239,"endTime":2545.03,"body":"sometimes. I mean, I'm not like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2545.03,"endTime":2547.849,"body":"being annoying, but like, I know"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2545.03,"endTime":2547.849,"body":"that some people are like, why"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2547.849,"endTime":2551.42,"body":"can't Can you just Could you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2547.849,"endTime":2551.42,"body":"just do the thing? I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2551.42,"endTime":2554.75,"body":"Listen, you know, it'll be it. I"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2551.42,"endTime":2554.75,"body":"promise. It'll be better this"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2554.75,"endTime":2558.079,"body":"way. Like, let's just talk a"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2554.75,"endTime":2558.079,"body":"little bit, you know? I don't"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2558.079,"endTime":2562.76,"body":"know, it's, I like talking about"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2558.079,"endTime":2562.76,"body":"it. It's a cool, it's a it's a"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":2562.76,"endTime":2565.25,"body":"cool way to approach you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2566.869,"endTime":2570.8,"body":"I sometimes get like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2566.869,"endTime":2570.8,"body":"people send me the GIF of like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2570.829,"endTime":2577.19,"body":"why are you the way you are? I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2570.829,"endTime":2577.19,"body":"get it. I'm like, I'm stubborn."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2577.19,"endTime":2580.25,"body":"And I'm like, I really should do"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2577.19,"endTime":2580.25,"body":"it. This we should really should"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2580.25,"endTime":2583.61,"body":"do it. There's no we should"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2580.25,"endTime":2583.61,"body":"really like, like trying to get"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2583.61,"endTime":2588.8,"body":"more. I can't just yell louder"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2583.61,"endTime":2588.8,"body":"at at people to try to get them"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2588.8,"endTime":2594.349,"body":"to accomplish what I want it. It"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2588.8,"endTime":2594.349,"body":"requires a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2594.349,"endTime":2599.09,"body":"effort on my part to try to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2594.349,"endTime":2599.09,"body":"understand and then maybe, maybe"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2599.09,"endTime":2602.809,"body":"I didn't do a good enough job"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2599.09,"endTime":2602.809,"body":"educating or training or"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2602.809,"endTime":2608.449,"body":"explaining like, what, what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2602.809,"endTime":2608.449,"body":"happened that broke down in what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2608.449,"endTime":2611.21,"body":"I thought we all agreed upon was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2608.449,"endTime":2611.21,"body":"the right way to do things and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2611.21,"endTime":2615.65,"body":"then suddenly isn't so totally,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2611.21,"endTime":2615.65,"body":"totally understand that a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2615.65,"endTime":2618.559,"body":"digging in the heels. situation."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2619.719,"endTime":2621.519,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2619.719,"endTime":2621.519,"body":"think that's so important. And"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2621.55,"endTime":2625.63,"body":"so overlooked, especially"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2621.55,"endTime":2625.63,"body":"because things move so fast. And"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2625.63,"endTime":2629.679,"body":"there's this sense of urgency"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2625.63,"endTime":2629.679,"body":"like everything has to be done,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2629.679,"endTime":2633.28,"body":"right. So let's find the"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2629.679,"endTime":2633.28,"body":"quickest path there. But it"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2633.28,"endTime":2638.26,"body":"sounds really methodical and"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2633.28,"endTime":2638.26,"body":"deliberate. And this this"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2638.26,"endTime":2642.489,"body":"process that gets developed, but"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2638.26,"endTime":2642.489,"body":"I'm definitely something that"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2642.519,"endTime":2644.44,"body":"that pays off in the end."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2646.909,"endTime":2649.82,"body":"It does it, trust me,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2646.909,"endTime":2649.82,"body":"it does pay off in the end. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2649.82,"endTime":2655.46,"body":"mean, I could have said, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2649.82,"endTime":2655.46,"body":"know, four or five years ago,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2655.46,"endTime":2658.07,"body":"well, this Job's never gonna"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2655.46,"endTime":2658.07,"body":"change, I go find something"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2658.07,"endTime":2662.48,"body":"else. And the problems that I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2658.07,"endTime":2662.48,"body":"had with myself and how I worked"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2662.48,"endTime":2670.159,"body":"would have followed me there."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2662.48,"endTime":2670.159,"body":"This was I really, let's see,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2670.159,"endTime":2673.46,"body":"what's the Tolstoy quote? It's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2670.159,"endTime":2673.46,"body":"like everyone thinks of changing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2673.46,"endTime":2678.11,"body":"the world, but no one thinks of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2673.46,"endTime":2678.11,"body":"changing themselves. That's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2678.139,"endTime":2682.429,"body":"that's sort of what hit me that,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2678.139,"endTime":2682.429,"body":"okay, maybe I can make some"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2682.429,"endTime":2685.519,"body":"changes in how I operate around"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2682.429,"endTime":2685.519,"body":"people and how I work with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2685.519,"endTime":2692.3,"body":"people. And that will help more"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2685.519,"endTime":2692.3,"body":"than just the work. They'll make"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2692.3,"endTime":2697.789,"body":"the work environment better,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2692.3,"endTime":2697.789,"body":"because there are some places"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2697.789,"endTime":2699.65,"body":"where the culture may be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2697.789,"endTime":2699.65,"body":"irredeemable."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2699.679,"endTime":2701.9,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2699.679,"endTime":2701.9,"body":"That's it was gonna be my next"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2701.9,"endTime":2705.11,"body":"question like, where do you draw"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2701.9,"endTime":2705.11,"body":"the line? Right?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2705.98,"endTime":2707.96,"body":"Where do I draw the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2705.98,"endTime":2707.96,"body":"line is probably different where"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2707.96,"endTime":2711.829,"body":"other people draw the line. I,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2707.96,"endTime":2711.829,"body":"like I said, I dig my heels in,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2711.829,"endTime":2719.929,"body":"I see, oh, we can, we can change"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2711.829,"endTime":2719.929,"body":"everything about this place. I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2720.019,"endTime":2724.55,"body":"more patient than others, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2720.019,"endTime":2724.55,"body":"jokingly tell some of my co"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2724.55,"endTime":2728.9,"body":"workers, I will outlast all my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2724.55,"endTime":2728.9,"body":"enemies. So like, if there's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2728.9,"endTime":2733.159,"body":"someone I don't like working"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2728.9,"endTime":2733.159,"body":"with, I'm like, well, maybe"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2733.19,"endTime":2736.489,"body":"maybe I should change how I work"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2733.19,"endTime":2736.489,"body":"with this person not expecting"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2736.519,"endTime":2741.769,"body":"the other people to change. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2736.519,"endTime":2741.769,"body":"it goes back to, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2741.769,"endTime":2746.63,"body":"mentioned earlier, like, how"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2741.769,"endTime":2746.63,"body":"much buy in do you get from"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2746.69,"endTime":2750.559,"body":"management and upper management"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2746.69,"endTime":2750.559,"body":"on DevOps? Well, sometimes you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2750.559,"endTime":2753.289,"body":"may not get any buy in. But that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2750.559,"endTime":2753.289,"body":"doesn't mean that you shouldn't"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2753.86,"endTime":2758.599,"body":"adhere to some of those like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2753.86,"endTime":2758.599,"body":"positive practices. In your own"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2758.599,"endTime":2762.44,"body":"experience, there are things"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2758.599,"endTime":2762.44,"body":"every individual contributor can"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2762.44,"endTime":2770.539,"body":"do to improve their working"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2762.44,"endTime":2770.539,"body":"situation. And sometimes you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2770.539,"endTime":2773.75,"body":"can't change the culture, just"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2770.539,"endTime":2773.75,"body":"like expecting the culture"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2773.75,"endTime":2776.989,"body":"check, like, hey, this culture"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2773.75,"endTime":2776.989,"body":"should change. Well, what brings"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2776.989,"endTime":2780.889,"body":"about cultural changes is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2776.989,"endTime":2780.889,"body":"specific behavioural change, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2780.889,"endTime":2784.94,"body":"have to actually change what"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2780.889,"endTime":2784.94,"body":"you're doing. in your day to day"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2784.969,"endTime":2788.48,"body":"how you work, how you interact"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2784.969,"endTime":2788.48,"body":"with people, we used to have a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2788.48,"endTime":2792.98,"body":"huge problem with, I call it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2788.48,"endTime":2792.98,"body":"hero culture, where people just"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2792.98,"endTime":2796.489,"body":"work themselves until they"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2792.98,"endTime":2796.489,"body":"collapse. And burnout and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2796.489,"endTime":2800.869,"body":"fatigue were really big"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2796.489,"endTime":2800.869,"body":"problems. I started setting a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2800.869,"endTime":2805.099,"body":"good example, I worked 40 hours"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2800.869,"endTime":2805.099,"body":"a week, I'm not doing that right"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2805.099,"endTime":2808.76,"body":"now. But I know I have a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2805.099,"endTime":2808.76,"body":"specific, like deadline. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2808.76,"endTime":2811.699,"body":"once I'm, once I'm past that, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2808.76,"endTime":2811.699,"body":"know I'm gonna have some like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2812.389,"endTime":2815.9,"body":"some time to relax some time to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2812.389,"endTime":2815.9,"body":"take it easy. Back to my like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2815.9,"endTime":2820.849,"body":"sort of 40 Hour Workweek, I was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2815.9,"endTime":2820.849,"body":"really strict about making sure"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2820.849,"endTime":2825.44,"body":"that I put in just the amount of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2820.849,"endTime":2825.44,"body":"time that I needed, I used my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2825.44,"endTime":2831.32,"body":"vacation time accordingly. If I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2825.44,"endTime":2831.32,"body":"didn't feel mentally well, even,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2831.32,"endTime":2835.19,"body":"we would use sick days for like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2831.32,"endTime":2835.19,"body":"mental well being days like and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2835.19,"endTime":2839.389,"body":"that was totally fine. And by"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2835.19,"endTime":2839.389,"body":"being a good example, other"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2839.389,"endTime":2844.28,"body":"people on the team started doing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2839.389,"endTime":2844.28,"body":"that same thing. Now, some"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2844.28,"endTime":2846.889,"body":"people were sort of addicted to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2844.28,"endTime":2846.889,"body":"that superhero culture and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2847.579,"endTime":2849.619,"body":"didn't like some of the changes"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2847.579,"endTime":2849.619,"body":"that were happening, and they"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2849.619,"endTime":2854.63,"body":"left and that's their"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2849.619,"endTime":2854.63,"body":"prerogative. But more people"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2854.63,"endTime":2858.829,"body":"stayed, then left when I started"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2854.63,"endTime":2858.829,"body":"saying, hey, maybe we should"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2858.829,"endTime":2863.48,"body":"work only 40 hours a week, for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2858.829,"endTime":2863.48,"body":"the most part. That seems like a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2863.48,"endTime":2864.619,"body":"reasonable thing to do."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2866.179,"endTime":2868.28,"body":"Now, what"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2866.179,"endTime":2868.28,"body":"if somebody higher up in your"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2868.28,"endTime":2871.25,"body":"company said no, that's not"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2868.28,"endTime":2871.25,"body":"acceptable, you need to put in"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2871.25,"endTime":2872.75,"body":"at least 50 hours a week?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2872.75,"endTime":2876.469,"body":"That's a good"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2872.75,"endTime":2876.469,"body":"question. And like I said, I, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2876.469,"endTime":2880.579,"body":"am more willing to take risks"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2876.469,"endTime":2880.579,"body":"with my professional career"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2880.579,"endTime":2884.989,"body":"there my personal life, my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2880.579,"endTime":2884.989,"body":"mentality is I'm going to work"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2884.989,"endTime":2887.929,"body":"what I think is going to be best"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2884.989,"endTime":2887.929,"body":"for everybody in the long run."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2888.5,"endTime":2891.679,"body":"And that means I'm going to put"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2888.5,"endTime":2891.679,"body":"in a 40 hour a week for the most"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2891.679,"endTime":2896.659,"body":"part. And if that led to people"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2891.679,"endTime":2896.659,"body":"realizing, hey, maybe this is a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2896.659,"endTime":2901.94,"body":"good idea, or maybe we should"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2896.659,"endTime":2901.94,"body":"get rid of this guy, the the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2901.969,"endTime":2904.699,"body":"cultural things are going to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2901.969,"endTime":2904.699,"body":"take care of themselves one way"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2904.699,"endTime":2908.15,"body":"or another. And if and if it led"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2904.699,"endTime":2908.15,"body":"to my having to go find someone"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2908.15,"endTime":2912.17,"body":"else, I would have done that."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2908.15,"endTime":2912.17,"body":"But it led to a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2912.17,"endTime":2918.409,"body":"realizing, hey, when this team"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2912.17,"endTime":2918.409,"body":"works, sane, solid hours, they"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2918.409,"endTime":2924.139,"body":"do high quality output of work."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2918.409,"endTime":2924.139,"body":"And so it was encouraged. And it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2924.139,"endTime":2927.769,"body":"was celebrated, that we were"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2924.139,"endTime":2927.769,"body":"doing the right thing, kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2927.769,"endTime":2932.239,"body":"like we accidentally broke prod,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2927.769,"endTime":2932.239,"body":"hey, that's a that's a behavior,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2932.239,"endTime":2935.21,"body":"because we took took an"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2932.239,"endTime":2935.21,"body":"acceptable level of risk and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2935.21,"endTime":2937.699,"body":"recovered from it quickly."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2935.21,"endTime":2937.699,"body":"Because we had built all the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2937.699,"endTime":2942.019,"body":"right things, let's celebrate"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2937.699,"endTime":2942.019,"body":"that not, you know, harass"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2942.019,"endTime":2943.94,"body":"somebody about the fact that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2942.019,"endTime":2943.94,"body":"they broke prod."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2947.599,"endTime":2950.269,"body":"So do you"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2947.599,"endTime":2950.269,"body":"think that you would say if you"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2950.269,"endTime":2952.61,"body":"were in a working condition"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2950.269,"endTime":2952.61,"body":"where you felt like"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2953.03,"endTime":2958.099,"body":"psychological safety was"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2953.03,"endTime":2958.099,"body":"something that wasn't valued? At"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2958.099,"endTime":2961.94,"body":"what point do you walk away from"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":2958.099,"endTime":2961.94,"body":"that? Right?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2962.389,"endTime":2968.059,"body":"Um, that that's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2962.389,"endTime":2968.059,"body":"really good question to me. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2968.09,"endTime":2971.269,"body":"may have mentioned it already."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2968.09,"endTime":2971.269,"body":"It's number one, for me the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2971.269,"endTime":2975.17,"body":"psychological safety, being able"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2971.269,"endTime":2975.17,"body":"to feel safe in a work"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2975.17,"endTime":2981.739,"body":"environment. I don't tolerate"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2975.17,"endTime":2981.739,"body":"low psychological safety very"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2981.739,"endTime":2986.989,"body":"well, like the one of the jobs I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2981.739,"endTime":2986.989,"body":"left a long time ago. This was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2987.349,"endTime":2990.32,"body":"like I think I wasn't even"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2987.349,"endTime":2990.32,"body":"graduated college. I was like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2990.349,"endTime":2993.8,"body":"building computers on a line for"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2990.349,"endTime":2993.8,"body":"a company that doesn't even"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2993.8,"endTime":2998.42,"body":"exist anymore. They asked me to,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2993.8,"endTime":2998.42,"body":"I had already worked 70 hours a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2998.42,"endTime":3002.079,"body":"week they asked me to come in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":2998.42,"endTime":3002.079,"body":"the next day, which was also my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3002.079,"endTime":3006.82,"body":"birthday, which my girlfriend"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3002.079,"endTime":3006.82,"body":"was coming in from out of town,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3006.82,"endTime":3009.82,"body":"who's now my wife, but she was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3006.82,"endTime":3009.82,"body":"coming in from out of town. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3009.82,"endTime":3011.829,"body":"they were like, No, you have to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3009.82,"endTime":3011.829,"body":"come in tomorrow. I'm like, No,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3011.829,"endTime":3016.69,"body":"I'm leaving right now. I never"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3011.829,"endTime":3016.69,"body":"and I'm just like, you can mail"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3016.69,"endTime":3022.179,"body":"me my last paycheck, I'm done. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3016.69,"endTime":3022.179,"body":"don't tolerate that. But like I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3022.179,"endTime":3025.75,"body":"said, I'm also have a high"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3022.179,"endTime":3025.75,"body":"threshold for what I consider"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3025.78,"endTime":3030.67,"body":"safe and unsafe. But you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3025.78,"endTime":3030.67,"body":"something like that. I just, I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3030.67,"endTime":3034.9,"body":"not going to just don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3030.67,"endTime":3034.9,"body":"understand. I won't put up with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3036.849,"endTime":3040.659,"body":"kind of the BS that sometimes"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3036.849,"endTime":3040.659,"body":"happens when people think that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3040.659,"endTime":3045.519,"body":"their, their method of working"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3040.659,"endTime":3045.519,"body":"people to death is the only way."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3049.119,"endTime":3051.61,"body":"I'm trying to dance around the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3049.119,"endTime":3051.61,"body":"issue that I know, we've heard"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3051.61,"endTime":3055.719,"body":"people in Virtual Coffee have"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3051.61,"endTime":3055.719,"body":"very specific problems with bad"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3055.719,"endTime":3059.349,"body":"bosses and bad behaviors. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3055.719,"endTime":3059.349,"body":"it's like, I would have left a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3059.349,"endTime":3063.4,"body":"long time ago, you have more"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3059.349,"endTime":3063.4,"body":"power and will then I do it. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3063.4,"endTime":3069.28,"body":"that's amazing. But yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3063.4,"endTime":3069.28,"body":"bosses yelling aren't exactly my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3069.28,"endTime":3072.28,"body":"favorite thing. But I I've been"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3069.28,"endTime":3072.28,"body":"able to put up with that because"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3072.28,"endTime":3077.949,"body":"I can kind of get around it and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3072.28,"endTime":3077.949,"body":"get to the point of it. And you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3077.949,"endTime":3081.219,"body":"know, it's, it's, it's something"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3077.949,"endTime":3081.219,"body":"that happens every once in a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3081.219,"endTime":3085.48,"body":"while, like I said, I worked in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3081.219,"endTime":3085.48,"body":"a mom and pop shop, I saw a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3085.75,"endTime":3088.36,"body":"husband and wife team yell at"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3085.75,"endTime":3088.36,"body":"each other every once in a while"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3088.36,"endTime":3091.539,"body":"and maybe sometimes yell at the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3088.36,"endTime":3091.539,"body":"staff. And I was like, when that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3091.539,"endTime":3094.57,"body":"started getting directed towards"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3091.539,"endTime":3094.57,"body":"me, I was like, I'm out of here."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3095.739,"endTime":3101.11,"body":"So like, you know, I don't you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3095.739,"endTime":3101.11,"body":"know, if it's abusive behavior"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3101.11,"endTime":3104.65,"body":"and bordering on, like, hey,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3101.11,"endTime":3104.65,"body":"this might be something that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3104.65,"endTime":3107.199,"body":"people could get sued for. I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3104.65,"endTime":3107.199,"body":"usually out the door."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3108.34,"endTime":3110.889,"body":"That's actually an"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3108.34,"endTime":3110.889,"body":"interesting part about radical"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3110.889,"endTime":3115.36,"body":"candor. Was was some of the,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3110.889,"endTime":3115.36,"body":"some of the examples she talked"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3115.36,"endTime":3117.909,"body":"about where people would get"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3115.36,"endTime":3117.909,"body":"like, he did indiscretions."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3117.94,"endTime":3123.46,"body":"Like, like, like, yell, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3117.94,"endTime":3123.46,"body":"know, but it was, you know, it"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3123.46,"endTime":3126.969,"body":"was not unsafe, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3123.46,"endTime":3126.969,"body":"that makes sense. And like, that"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3126.969,"endTime":3130.539,"body":"was kind of a revelation for me."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3126.969,"endTime":3130.539,"body":"Because, you know, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3130.539,"endTime":3134.199,"body":"I'm not like, I don't, if I'm"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3130.539,"endTime":3134.199,"body":"yelling, I'm probably like,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3134.23,"endTime":3137.32,"body":"upset, like, not, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3134.23,"endTime":3137.32,"body":"like, probably not feeling very"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3137.32,"endTime":3139.42,"body":"good. You know, I mean, but"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3137.32,"endTime":3139.42,"body":"there there are definitely times"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3139.42,"endTime":3144.07,"body":"where I have with people I work"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3139.42,"endTime":3144.07,"body":"with, and, you know, respect,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3144.07,"endTime":3147.579,"body":"like, we have, like, gotten"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3144.07,"endTime":3147.579,"body":"heated at about because we're"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3147.579,"endTime":3151.15,"body":"like, it's not like we are"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3147.579,"endTime":3151.15,"body":"yelling at each other, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3151.15,"endTime":3154.21,"body":"we're like yelling to each other"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3151.15,"endTime":3154.21,"body":"about a thing that we're arguing"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3154.21,"endTime":3158.409,"body":"about, you know, like, an"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3154.21,"endTime":3158.409,"body":"approach or something. And it's"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3158.409,"endTime":3161.409,"body":"an interesting like, that the"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3158.409,"endTime":3161.409,"body":"the raised voices sort of"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3161.409,"endTime":3165.369,"body":"situation is like, it's always"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3161.409,"endTime":3165.369,"body":"an interesting topic for me,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3165.369,"endTime":3167.32,"body":"because I don't do I don't do"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3165.369,"endTime":3167.32,"body":"pretty well with confrontation."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3168.579,"endTime":3171.01,"body":"Like, I also would, like, just"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3168.579,"endTime":3171.01,"body":"be peacing out as soon as"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3171.01,"endTime":3173.38,"body":"somebody was yelling at me, like"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3171.01,"endTime":3173.38,"body":"a boss was yelling at me, you"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3173.38,"endTime":3176.199,"body":"know, I mean, my personal"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3173.38,"endTime":3176.199,"body":"experience was with a colleague,"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3176.199,"endTime":3179.559,"body":"you know, it wasn't like, it"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3176.199,"endTime":3179.559,"body":"wasn't like, a higher up"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3179.619,"endTime":3181.809,"body":"dealing, you know, so. I don't"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3179.619,"endTime":3181.809,"body":"know."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3182.65,"endTime":3185.019,"body":"I mean, arguing is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3182.65,"endTime":3185.019,"body":"something I'm fine with, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3185.019,"endTime":3188.59,"body":"like the actual, like, directed,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3185.019,"endTime":3188.59,"body":"like, we're, it's just, it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3188.59,"endTime":3191.32,"body":"doesn't even make sense. If"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3188.59,"endTime":3191.32,"body":"people are just yelling to yell,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3191.349,"endTime":3195.789,"body":"that's no good. I have like a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3191.349,"endTime":3195.789,"body":"one situation where like, I got"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3195.789,"endTime":3200.679,"body":"really mad, or call. And I like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3195.789,"endTime":3200.679,"body":"like, slant, like, I picked up"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3200.679,"endTime":3203.71,"body":"my keyboard and I just slammed"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3200.679,"endTime":3203.71,"body":"it down, and like, broke the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3203.71,"endTime":3207.55,"body":"little like feet thingies off of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3203.71,"endTime":3207.55,"body":"it. And I'm like, Okay, well,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3207.55,"endTime":3210.76,"body":"that violence in the workplace"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3207.55,"endTime":3210.76,"body":"is never accepted. Like, I came"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3210.76,"endTime":3214.329,"body":"back an hour later, like, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3210.76,"endTime":3214.329,"body":"I'm sorry, everybody for doing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3214.329,"endTime":3218.079,"body":"that. Like, like, I actually"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3214.329,"endTime":3218.079,"body":"still have that keyboard. Like,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3218.079,"endTime":3220.57,"body":"that was eight years ago. And I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3218.079,"endTime":3220.57,"body":"taped it back up, and I still"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3220.57,"endTime":3223.869,"body":"use that keyboard as a reminder,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3220.57,"endTime":3223.869,"body":"don't slam stuff in the office."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3224.469,"endTime":3227.469,"body":"Like, that's just not okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3224.469,"endTime":3227.469,"body":"Like, there's some lines that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3227.5,"endTime":3231.969,"body":"you know, I my boss likes to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3227.5,"endTime":3231.969,"body":"joke, everyone so well, he tells"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3231.969,"endTime":3237.13,"body":"people you know, we broke Tom"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3231.969,"endTime":3237.13,"body":"once. Because he was it was like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3237.13,"endTime":3241.179,"body":"three in the morning on the day,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3237.13,"endTime":3241.179,"body":"something was supposed to launch"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3241.179,"endTime":3244.51,"body":"and it just completely"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3241.179,"endTime":3244.51,"body":"collapsed. And nobody else was"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3244.51,"endTime":3247.78,"body":"online. And you can just see his"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3244.51,"endTime":3247.78,"body":"frantic messages in slack"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3247.78,"endTime":3252.639,"body":"getting more and more until he"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3247.78,"endTime":3252.639,"body":"was like, I'm done. And, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3252.639,"endTime":3258.25,"body":"know, I felt safe enough to go,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3252.639,"endTime":3258.25,"body":"I just give up. I'm gonna go to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3258.25,"endTime":3260.92,"body":"sleep for eight hours. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3258.25,"endTime":3260.92,"body":"whatever happens over that next"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3260.92,"endTime":3263.769,"body":"eight hours, I leave it to the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3260.92,"endTime":3263.769,"body":"rest of you to deal with so"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3264.13,"endTime":3268.659,"body":"like, it's, it's sort of you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3264.13,"endTime":3268.659,"body":"have to know, I may not have"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3268.659,"endTime":3272.409,"body":"known my break point then. But"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3268.659,"endTime":3272.409,"body":"like, I know now what my limits"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3272.409,"endTime":3276.369,"body":"are. And I I'm do a good job of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3272.409,"endTime":3276.369,"body":"staying within that. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3277.09,"endTime":3281.019,"body":"understanding that about"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3277.09,"endTime":3281.019,"body":"yourself is important. But when"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3281.019,"endTime":3283.51,"body":"you start to understand"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3281.019,"endTime":3283.51,"body":"yourself, you can say, Okay, I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3283.51,"endTime":3286.78,"body":"seeing where this person on my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3283.51,"endTime":3286.78,"body":"team has a limit that they don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3286.78,"endTime":3289.929,"body":"even recognize and I'm like, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3286.78,"endTime":3289.929,"body":"need to go home. Well, I know"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3289.929,"endTime":3293.199,"body":"you are home, you need to turn"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3289.929,"endTime":3293.199,"body":"off your computer, or I'm going"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3293.199,"endTime":3295.869,"body":"to send it a message to change"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3293.199,"endTime":3295.869,"body":"your password without telling"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3295.869,"endTime":3301.059,"body":"you so like, so you can't log in"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3295.869,"endTime":3301.059,"body":"until it's Till I say it's okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3302.889,"endTime":3307.809,"body":"It's, it's, as a manager team"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3302.889,"endTime":3307.809,"body":"lead, you sort of become a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3307.809,"endTime":3310.449,"body":"little bit of a psychological"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3307.809,"endTime":3310.449,"body":"safety net for the people that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3310.449,"endTime":3315.01,"body":"are around you. And it's a, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3310.449,"endTime":3315.01,"body":"a different skill. But I like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3315.01,"endTime":3318.369,"body":"doing it, I like helping the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3315.01,"endTime":3318.369,"body":"people that I work with and hope"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3318.369,"endTime":3319.48,"body":"that I'm doing a good job."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3321.159,"endTime":3324.07,"body":"I think too"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3321.159,"endTime":3324.07,"body":"knowing the people and having"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3324.07,"endTime":3327.219,"body":"that relationship also can"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3324.07,"endTime":3327.219,"body":"determine how you're"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3327.219,"endTime":3330.61,"body":"communicating with them, right,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3327.219,"endTime":3330.61,"body":"and understanding what their"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3330.61,"endTime":3334.63,"body":"limits are. Because sometimes, I"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3330.61,"endTime":3334.63,"body":"always like to think about this,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3334.69,"endTime":3337.989,"body":"even in terms of what a good"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3334.69,"endTime":3337.989,"body":"trainer is, right? Because a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3337.989,"endTime":3340.719,"body":"good trainer knows how to"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3337.989,"endTime":3340.719,"body":"motivate each person there,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3340.9,"endTime":3343.599,"body":"because they have some type of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3340.9,"endTime":3343.599,"body":"relationship. So sometimes you"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3343.599,"endTime":3346.51,"body":"might need them to say like,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3343.599,"endTime":3346.51,"body":"okay, you need to stop, it's"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3346.51,"endTime":3349.48,"body":"time to do something else. Or"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3346.51,"endTime":3349.48,"body":"sometimes you give gentle"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3349.48,"endTime":3352.659,"body":"encouragement. And then there is"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3349.48,"endTime":3352.659,"body":"times when, when you know, some"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3352.659,"endTime":3356.409,"body":"people need a specific type of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3352.659,"endTime":3356.409,"body":"encouragement, and maybe that's"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3356.409,"endTime":3360.67,"body":"going to be loud. Or maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3356.409,"endTime":3360.67,"body":"going to be a different approach"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3360.67,"endTime":3364.57,"body":"that you take with someone else."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3360.67,"endTime":3364.57,"body":"But recognizing how to motivate"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3364.57,"endTime":3369.76,"body":"that person. And that it's not a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3364.57,"endTime":3369.76,"body":"blanket approach for everyone is"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3369.76,"endTime":3375.429,"body":"what's going to create, like a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3369.76,"endTime":3375.429,"body":"solid culture of respect, and a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3375.429,"endTime":3378.88,"body":"place where somebody can grow"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3375.429,"endTime":3378.88,"body":"and take risks, like you're"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3378.88,"endTime":3379.659,"body":"talking about."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3380.38,"endTime":3383.679,"body":"Yeah, I have learned a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3380.38,"endTime":3383.679,"body":"lot from the manager, manager,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3383.679,"endTime":3386.98,"body":"tools, website and podcast,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3383.679,"endTime":3386.98,"body":"about some of those"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3386.98,"endTime":3389.65,"body":"communication methods, I do one"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3386.98,"endTime":3389.65,"body":"on ones with the people on my"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3389.65,"endTime":3392.949,"body":"team, that's a good way to build"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3389.65,"endTime":3392.949,"body":"up rapport and build up that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3392.949,"endTime":3395.8,"body":"kind of that all that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3392.949,"endTime":3395.8,"body":"relationship building that I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3395.8,"endTime":3400.48,"body":"talked about happens in there,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3395.8,"endTime":3400.48,"body":"especially now virtually, like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3400.48,"endTime":3402.849,"body":"the one on ones are the way I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3400.48,"endTime":3402.849,"body":"can engage with people on a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3402.849,"endTime":3407.679,"body":"regular basis. I've learned a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3402.849,"endTime":3407.679,"body":"lot of skills from that in terms"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3407.679,"endTime":3412.03,"body":"of I, like I said, I have true,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3407.679,"endTime":3412.03,"body":"I have had trouble giving direct"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3412.03,"endTime":3414.519,"body":"criticism and feedback to people"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3412.03,"endTime":3414.519,"body":"that I'm working with in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3414.519,"endTime":3420.849,"body":"past. So like that, some of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3414.519,"endTime":3420.849,"body":"those tools gave me techniques"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3420.849,"endTime":3424.989,"body":"like, find a very small thing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3420.849,"endTime":3424.989,"body":"that you want someone to do that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3424.989,"endTime":3428.11,"body":"you need them to do directly."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3424.989,"endTime":3428.11,"body":"And you may know they're not"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3428.11,"endTime":3430.36,"body":"going to do it, even though you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3428.11,"endTime":3430.36,"body":"may ask them directly so that"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3430.36,"endTime":3433.21,"body":"you keep following up and like"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3430.36,"endTime":3433.21,"body":"you sort of show how you're"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3433.21,"endTime":3437.17,"body":"going to escalate through the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3433.21,"endTime":3437.17,"body":"like, okay, I asked you to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3437.17,"endTime":3442.75,"body":"submit this report last week to"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3437.17,"endTime":3442.75,"body":"this thing. What prevented you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3442.75,"endTime":3445.869,"body":"from doing that? And then the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3442.75,"endTime":3445.869,"body":"next time you can you just add"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3445.869,"endTime":3448.9,"body":"more emphasis and say, Look,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3445.869,"endTime":3448.9,"body":"this is a part of your job. And"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3448.9,"endTime":3452.17,"body":"this is a job expectation that I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3448.9,"endTime":3452.17,"body":"expect from you. So learning"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3452.17,"endTime":3456.429,"body":"some of those techniques is, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3452.17,"endTime":3456.429,"body":"know, like I said, I'm a"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3456.519,"endTime":3460.599,"body":"individual contributor,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3456.519,"endTime":3460.599,"body":"technologist in training, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3460.63,"endTime":3465.25,"body":"like, retooling my sort of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3460.63,"endTime":3465.25,"body":"managerial capabilities and team"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3465.25,"endTime":3469.21,"body":"lead capabilities over the last"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3465.25,"endTime":3469.21,"body":"like two, three years, has been"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3469.239,"endTime":3473.05,"body":"a new and interesting set of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3469.239,"endTime":3473.05,"body":"challenges. It's also"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3473.05,"endTime":3477.25,"body":"interesting to see how many of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3473.05,"endTime":3477.25,"body":"the same lessons in tech apply"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3477.25,"endTime":3481.78,"body":"to dealing with people and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3477.25,"endTime":3481.78,"body":"systems of people. So it's not"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3482.05,"endTime":3485.65,"body":"it's it's more one to one than I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3482.05,"endTime":3485.65,"body":"think most people realize doing"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3485.65,"endTime":3490.75,"body":"that the tech to lead kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3485.65,"endTime":3490.75,"body":"sideways shift."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3491.909,"endTime":3495.539,"body":"Well, I"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3491.909,"endTime":3495.539,"body":"feel like I could talk to you"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3495.539,"endTime":3497.73,"body":"about this stuff for at least"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3495.539,"endTime":3497.73,"body":"another hour."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3499.059,"endTime":3500.11,"body":"I probably could too,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3500.59,"endTime":3502.48,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3500.59,"endTime":3502.48,"body":"this hour is gone by so fast. I"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3502.48,"endTime":3504.94,"body":"just looked up like wow, we've"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3502.48,"endTime":3504.94,"body":"been doing this for a while. But"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3504.94,"endTime":3507.849,"body":"this has been really, really"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3504.94,"endTime":3507.849,"body":"great. So thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3507.849,"endTime":3511.3,"body":"being here with us today. If"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3507.849,"endTime":3511.3,"body":"there's like a top Do you have a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3511.3,"endTime":3514.42,"body":"top resource that you recommend"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3511.3,"endTime":3514.42,"body":"for people to get started?"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3516.07,"endTime":3520.57,"body":"So if it's for DevOps,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3516.07,"endTime":3520.57,"body":"I would definitely start with"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3520.869,"endTime":3525.429,"body":"the Phoenix project, or the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3520.869,"endTime":3525.429,"body":"unicorn project as a follow up"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3525.46,"endTime":3528.25,"body":"that has like additional"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3525.46,"endTime":3528.25,"body":"learnings from over the years,"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3528.309,"endTime":3532.0,"body":"one of those two is a good way"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3528.309,"endTime":3532.0,"body":"to really focus on that kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3532.0,"endTime":3536.53,"body":"DevOps. What DevOps is"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3532.0,"endTime":3536.53,"body":"culturally? And what can can it"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3536.53,"endTime":3539.5,"body":"do for the actual technology"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3536.53,"endTime":3539.5,"body":"that you're working with and the"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3539.5,"endTime":3542.019,"body":"teams that you're working with."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3539.5,"endTime":3542.019,"body":"So Phoenix project is sort of"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3542.019,"endTime":3550.3,"body":"the big unlock there. If, if"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3542.019,"endTime":3550.3,"body":"you're looking for how to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3550.3,"endTime":3553.42,"body":"dealing with people and"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3550.3,"endTime":3553.42,"body":"fostering that psychological"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3553.42,"endTime":3558.699,"body":"safety, radical candor is still"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3553.42,"endTime":3558.699,"body":"my favorite resource for that. I"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3559.119,"endTime":3562.15,"body":"have got a copy from the library"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3559.119,"endTime":3562.15,"body":"because I think I load my copy"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3562.15,"endTime":3565.539,"body":"up to someone back when we"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3562.15,"endTime":3565.539,"body":"actually were in offices, so"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3565.599,"endTime":3569.079,"body":"have to dig that up eventually."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3565.599,"endTime":3569.079,"body":"But yeah, radical candor is just"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3569.619,"endTime":3573.429,"body":"an excellent resource for that."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3569.619,"endTime":3573.429,"body":"Fostering those good"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3573.429,"endTime":3577.3,"body":"relationships and trusting"},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3573.429,"endTime":3577.3,"body":"relationships in a safe way."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3578.679,"endTime":3580.539,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3578.679,"endTime":3580.539,"body":"Well, thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3580.539,"endTime":3584.739,"body":"sharing that and everything else"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3580.539,"endTime":3584.739,"body":"with us today. This has been a"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3584.739,"endTime":3589.51,"body":"really great learning experience"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3584.739,"endTime":3589.51,"body":"for me. Thanks for being here."},{"speaker":"Tom Cudd","startTime":3590.079,"endTime":3590.769,"body":"Glad I can join."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3592.38,"endTime":3593.01,"body":"Thanks, Tom."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3595.9,"endTime":3597.82,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3595.9,"endTime":3597.82,"body":"for listening to this episode of"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3597.82,"endTime":3602.019,"body":"the Virtual Coffee podcast. This"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3597.82,"endTime":3602.019,"body":"Episode was produced by Dan Ott"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3602.019,"endTime":3606.25,"body":"and Bekah Hawrot Weigel, and"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3602.019,"endTime":3606.25,"body":"edited by Dan Ott. If you have"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3606.25,"endTime":3609.46,"body":"questions or comments, you can"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3606.25,"endTime":3609.46,"body":"hit us up on Twitter at Virtual"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3609.46,"endTime":3614.38,"body":"Coffee io. Or you can email us"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3609.46,"endTime":3614.38,"body":"at podcast at Virtual coffee.io."},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3615.4,"endTime":3618.01,"body":"You can find the show notes plus"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3615.4,"endTime":3618.01,"body":"you can sign up for our"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3618.01,"endTime":3621.099,"body":"newsletter to find out what"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3618.01,"endTime":3621.099,"body":"Virtual Coffee has been up to on"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3621.099,"endTime":3623.65,"body":"our website at Virtual"},{"speaker":"Bekah Hawrot Weigel","startTime":3621.099,"endTime":3623.65,"body":"coffee.io."},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3624.789,"endTime":3627.489,"body":"Please subscribe to our"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3624.789,"endTime":3627.489,"body":"podcast and be sure to leave us"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3627.519,"endTime":3630.699,"body":"a review. Thanks for listening"},{"speaker":"Dan Ott","startTime":3627.519,"endTime":3630.699,"body":"and we'll see you next week."}]}